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Thread: While I'm at it ....

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    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by 2RUDE View Post
    I've dug up a slew of plastic mains, and brought up a wire because it previously had no hook-up points, and the area was so congested. It's amazing how many CATV feeders and drops I've found that were plowed in directly over a plastic main (Making your pipehorn worthless in this instance), either because the main had been mis-marked , or not marked at all when the CATV line was installed. Unfortunately, we don't have the turn back option. Let me rephrase that..... We DIDN"T have the turn back option.
    With many catv, and even phone, companies hiring guys working out of their private pickup trucks, working as independent contractors, this will happen. They will lay in a line directly over and parallel to an existing utility. They say it is no problem becasue they are not digging deep enough to hit anything. Of course they create a lot of un-locatable utilities that way. This will continue as long as the utilities that hire them does not have to pay to have the offending service drop removed and replaced.

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    to me it would actually make sense to have a set easement for ALL utilities, i.e. phone 2 ft easement , then cable 2 ft easement, electric 2 ft easement, and so on, crossing would be easier, no utilities would have to worry about their lines being cut by others other than being crossed. This would also allow for less bleed over when locating the utilities, and would keep customers with service, and less damages... of course this would be wishful thinking... just like a river of beer.

  3. #33
    TMO
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by sauroke View Post
    to me it would actually make sense to have a set easement for ALL utilities, i.e. phone 2 ft easement , then cable 2 ft easement, electric 2 ft easement, and so on, crossing would be easier, no utilities would have to worry about their lines being cut by others other than being crossed. This would also allow for less bleed over when locating the utilities, and would keep customers with service, and less damages... of course this would be wishful thinking... just like a river of beer.
    I agree thats a great idea, policing the quality of the install would be almost impossible. Ya know , getting the contractor doing the install to maintain the designated easement.

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    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by TMO View Post
    I agree thats a great idea, policing the quality of the install would be almost impossible. Ya know , getting the contractor doing the install to maintain the designated easement.
    You got that right. I had a directional bore job to install new electric primary. The bore crew shows up with the CDL class trucks and hydraulic directional bore and with only two people who spoke very limited English. They had no drawings and were not told where to install the primary, just follow the general route of what we marked. I seriously doubt that the primary was installed anywhere near the easement.


    I have been on many jobs where the crews were dropped of with some pneumatic missiles and shovels and none of the crew on site spoke any English. Often the guys did not know what the marks meant and cut into utilities with their shovels.

    The installation industry is ripe with illegal aliens and don't try telling me that the companies do not know who they are hiring.

  5. #35
    Mke
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    If there was an easement for each individual utility, in some places you would have like a 100' wide easement. 36" Sanitary might have a 15' easement from centerline of pipe, the Storm line will have about the same, The water line, depending on the width will probably have a 15' easement as well from CL of pipe. Thats 45' worth of easement, and we haven't even started on the communication and power yet. Very rarely will you find a 2' easement, I think the smallest I've seen has been a 5' easement for a single conduit fiber, if there is any ductbanks widen that back out to 10-15' again. So at 5' for each.... Power, CATV, Phone. you are at 60' and each company has to pay for their individual Easement....which equals more moola from their pockets. However, if they just bury jointly they all share the common easement.

    And this is where all the engineers dance around singing "screw the locator"..

    mke

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    Senior Member RD_Wrangler's Avatar
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Joint easements are fine. Hell a common 15' easement would be great...if it were regulated.

    Picture a common 10' to 15" easement with DEPTH allotments. Sewer-15ft., water-10ft., power 6ft., gas-4ft., communications 2ft. Or you could bury gas and power at same depth (say 5ft.)with the requirement that power always be on the North and West sides and gas on the South and East sides, and then phone and CATV the same way (3ft. depth for each but phone always North and West with CATV always on EAST and South). Anyone digging within said easement would then be required to vac-ex for any excavations, and would know how deep to go for whatever utility it was they were accessing. Services would be required to exit the easement at the nearest point from enclosure to property line of the serviced address.

    Wow, that almost makes too much sense...
    Character is what you are in the dark. It is the things you do, when nobody can see, and nobody will ever know, that define who you are as an individual.

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    I actually like that idea!!! lot less damages this way
    wise men talk because they have something to say and fools because they have to say something....plato

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by RD_Wrangler View Post
    Joint easements are fine. Hell a common 15' easement would be great...if it were regulated.

    Picture a common 10' to 15" easement with DEPTH allotments. Sewer-15ft., water-10ft., power 6ft., gas-4ft., communications 2ft. Or you could bury gas and power at same depth (say 5ft.)with the requirement that power always be on the North and West sides and gas on the South and East sides, and then phone and CATV the same way (3ft. depth for each but phone always North and West with CATV always on EAST and South). Anyone digging within said easement would then be required to vac-ex for any excavations, and would know how deep to go for whatever utility it was they were accessing. Services would be required to exit the easement at the nearest point from enclosure to property line of the serviced address.

    Wow, that almost makes too much sense...
    I have found that where gas and electric are buried joint there is the danger of current from an electric fault can melt a metal gas pipe, seen a two inch gas line melted by a secondary fault. New gas installations are mostly all plastic now but if the plastic gas line is in contact with an electrical line the heat from a fault can still burn through it. Keeping utilities that are buried jointly from contacting each other is a difficult task.

    With utilities at different depths, something the industry tried to come up with decades ago, you inevitably come into the problem of digging past others to get to the one you want. A vac dig truck would make this safer but the expense would be considered prohibitive by the utility industry. Just imagine every dig accompanied by a vac truck, that would require a lot of money to keep that level of inventory in stock and manned.

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    Senior Member RD_Wrangler's Avatar
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator View Post
    I have found that where gas and electric are buried joint there is the danger of current from an electric fault can melt a metal gas pipe, seen a two inch gas line melted by a secondary fault. New gas installations are mostly all plastic now but if the plastic gas line is in contact with an electrical line the heat from a fault can still burn through it. Keeping utilities that are buried jointly from contacting each other is a difficult task.

    With utilities at different depths, something the industry tried to come up with decades ago, you inevitably come into the problem of digging past others to get to the one you want. A vac dig truck would make this safer but the expense would be considered prohibitive by the utility industry. Just imagine every dig accompanied by a vac truck, that would require a lot of money to keep that level of inventory in stock and manned.
    If you have a 10 ft easement and gas is buried on one side within 2 ft of the edge and power on the other side within 2 ft of the edge...don't think it's that big of a problem...notice also my idea included CATV and gas being buried on one side and power and phone on the other...sure would handle that pesky bleed-over problem of power and CATV wouldn't it? And utilities are ALREADY buried at differing depths, this would simply regulate the placement in the easement, as opposed to first come first serve...

    As to the cost of requiring vacuum excavation within the easement, there are some areas with that requirement already (seems to work well), and the cost would be offset by the loss of damage payouts, loss of shut-down-time from damage repairs and loss of service re-imbursements. Since the likely-hood of anything getting cut is dropped significantly with a vacuum spot as well as a general depth knowledge already in play...nobody said they couldn't use a shovel...just vacuum to spot the utilities, then dig like mad with no worries.

    "We're down three ft. boss, ah, there's the CATV, gas should be below it here along these marks about 2 ft. over from it...they got those lines spotted in the yard yet? We can prolly get this new service tapped in record time...off-load the digger."
    Last edited by RD_Wrangler; October 3rd, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
    Character is what you are in the dark. It is the things you do, when nobody can see, and nobody will ever know, that define who you are as an individual.

    "Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    It is impossible to regulate the actual depth of installation due to grading.

    In a new subdivision the utilities, most of them, are installed before the completion of the buildings in the area. The area is given a final grading long after the utilities are in. This results in the depth being anywhere from original installation to deeper or more shallow. I once tripped over a two inch plastic gas main that was exposed by the final grading.

    Also due to grading the depth is not consistent, one section is a one depth and another section another depth often in the same yard.

    Some time after original installation mains will be replaced, especially tv mains which have a short lifetime. So directional bore crews will come in later and due having to avoid original installation, if for no other reason then pulling in a new cable will be damaged by a ragged edge of an old line that has been cut through, will have to install at different depths.

    Setting the various depths is a good idea but just not possible to reliably implement.


    Quote Originally Posted by RD_Wrangler View Post
    If you have a 10 ft easement and gas is buried on one side within 2 ft of the edge and power on the other side within 2 ft of the edge...don't think it's that big of a problem...notice also my idea included CATV and gas being buried on one side and power and phone on the other...sure would handle that pesky bleed-over problem of power and CATV wouldn't it? And utilities are ALREADY buried at differing depths, this would simply regulate the placement in the easement, as opposed to first come first serve...

    As to the cost of requiring vacuum excavation within the easement, there are some areas with that requirement already (seems to work well), and the cost would be offset by the loss of damage payouts, loss of shut-down-time from damage repairs and loss of service re-imbursements. Since the likely-hood of anything getting cut is dropped significantly with a vacuum spot as well as a general depth knowledge already in play...nobody said they couldn't use a shovel...just vacuum to spot the utilities, then dig like mad with no worries.

    "We're down three ft. boss, ah, there's the CATV, gas should be below it here along these marks about 2 ft. over from it...they got those lines spotted in the yard yet? We can prolly get this new service tapped in record time...off-load the digger."

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    TMO
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator View Post
    You got that right. I had a directional bore job to install new electric primary. The bore crew shows up with the CDL class trucks and hydraulic directional bore and with only two people who spoke very limited English. They had no drawings and were not told where to install the primary, just follow the general route of what we marked. I seriously doubt that the primary was installed anywhere near the easement.


    I have been on many jobs where the crews were dropped of with some pneumatic missiles and shovels and none of the crew on site spoke any English. Often the guys did not know what the marks meant and cut into utilities with their shovels.

    The installation industry is ripe with illegal aliens and don't try telling me that the companies do not know who they are hiring.
    I agree! i see this scenario many times in a one week period. In my area the most troublesome are the catv master contractor.
    These guys LOVE to find the phone marks, and shoot what they hope is 2 foot deeper than the phone. DIRECTLY

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    TMO
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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by TMO View Post
    I agree! i see this scenario many times in a one week period. In my area the most troublesome are the catv master contractor.
    These guys LOVE to find the phone marks, and shoot what they hope is 2 foot deeper than the phone. DIRECTLY
    (OOPS) in line with the phone.
    Contractors that have no concern for the utility they are providing a service for, and ignorantly disregard any other utility in the area.
    If there were a relative 'Policeman' for inspecting and regulation of the easement maintenance, I WOULD NOT WANT THE JOB!!

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Isn't that the problem though? Nobody caring about the job they are doing? It's a sad decline in industries across the nation. They SHOULD be held accountable for their installs, and also policed. When a new building is going up there is always inspections, permits, designs etc. that ensure that the building is meeting a certain standard. For a company to install a power line incorrectly, it could mean death to the person actually hooking it up, loss of service in a few months, or as was pointed out a gas line being melted through, and boom! We all know where that goes.

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    wise men talk because they have something to say and fools because they have to say something....plato

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    Default Re: While I'm at it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by sauroke View Post
    Isn't that the problem though? Nobody caring about the job they are doing? It's a sad decline in industries across the nation. They SHOULD be held accountable for their installs, and also policed. When a new building is going up there is always inspections, permits, designs etc. that ensure that the building is meeting a certain standard. For a company to install a power line incorrectly, it could mean death to the person actually hooking it up, loss of service in a few months, or as was pointed out a gas line being melted through, and boom! We all know where that goes.
    The utility companies mostly hire contractors now for installations and these contractors often sub out the work. The utility companies are fully aware of the poor installation being done and are not concerned. These utilities represent big local money and with that contributions to the local legislators election campaigns. The chance of local authority policing the big utilities is about none.

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