Phoenix Loss Control

**TheCableVine** · April 28th, 2010, 10:52 PM

Anybody ever hear of Phoenix Loss Control?

This is a bit from their website:

Phoenix Loss Control, Inc. is a nationwide organization specializing in the recovery of cable and telecommunications damage repair costs to all outside plant facility, including coaxial and fiber cable.

Report your damages with ease – Phoenix is just one phone call away.

Investigate your damages completely and thoroughly – Phoenix provides the investigator.

Eliminate paperwork caused by damages - Phoenix does all the paperwork and takes the pictures.

Recover your repair costs – Phoenix will help you put those dollars back into your budget.

http://www.phoenixlosscontrol.com

**Locateall** · April 29th, 2010, 12:11 AM

They are a small version of CMR claims. They hire housewives and such to look at and take pictures at damages

**sprayandpray** · April 29th, 2010, 06:52 AM

Here in DFW they work for Time Warner Cable. Most everyone I have met is a retired TWC or ATT employee. They are used in place of TW Mgmt people and they will try their best to find out who actually damaged facilities when someone digs without a ticket.

**Mke** · April 29th, 2010, 09:52 AM

How can you investigate a damage if you don't know how to locate? (I know i'm assuming they are not locators). Whenever I get called out to a damage I have a list of questions I need to answer.... on the very bottom of the list is "who is at fault?" My main concern is to limit any further damage to the line and to expedite the repair of the line.

For example. I had a 2" water service hit on me a couple of weeks back. I got the frantic call from the contractor "Hey, we hit a water line, and all the water is pissing everywhere and our trench will be filled in no time." I haul my butt out there, and the first thing I do is figure out where the shut-off valve are and who is going to be affected. If there is a facility going to be affected, we have to let them know first, before shutting the valves down. As soon as the line was shut down it is time to Positively I.D. the line as the 2" service to a Pump station. Then you tell the crew to dig out the line for the repair. Then I switch to, "How in the Hell did this line get hit?" mode. I know I did not put any paint on it. there was visable tracerwire on the pipe.

I go through the motions of locating it via the tracer wire, and find out that the wire only locates for 4' in one direction, and 10' in the opposite direction. How is someone not experienced in locating going to perceive a PVC water line with tracer wire on it? Should be locateable. Wire only helps if it is continuous.

mke

**Bbent** · July 20th, 2011, 10:33 PM

Well, let me clear the air about Phoenix Loss Control. Damage is not always about locates. I am an investigator and work closely with locate cos in my area. I am a retired Claim Team Manager from
State Farm Ins. I spent almost 40 years investigating all sorts of claims. I have the credentials and the expertise needed to investigate simple or complex matters. I haven't met any "housewives" mentioned. I am enjoying working for Phoenix part time and thank for the forum to address this issue.

**headcipher** · July 22nd, 2011, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bbent

Well, let me clear the air about Phoenix Loss Control. Damage is not always about locates. I am an investigator and work closely with locate cos in my area. I am a retired Claim Team Manager from
State Farm Ins. I spent almost 40 years investigating all sorts of claims. I have the credentials and the expertise needed to investigate simple or complex matters. I haven't met any "housewives" mentioned. I am enjoying working for Phoenix part time and thank for the forum to address this issue.

Damage to utilities much of the time DOES come down to locates. Was there locates? Were they accurate? If marks were wrong, can the facility be located? Did the contractor call for locates? Did the contractor dig beyond the locates?

If you claim that you are qualified to determine if something was located correctly, or if a facility can be located or not, and you have no experience locating utilities yourself, well then I don't care how long you've been doing insurance claims. Without actual knowledge and experience in this field YOU ARE UNQUALIFIED.

Utilities are not cars and houses. You want to learn to locate? THAT would be great! All you have to do is go spend 4-6 years in the field locating all types of facilities and then you will be qualified.

**Mke** · July 22nd, 2011, 09:34 AM

I'm kinda with Cipher on this one. Anyone can take measurements and pictures, however it takes a locator to know if a utility was locateable or not, or at least a minor in radio frequency theory.

As my trainer once said.... "It's always easier to locate a utility once someone else has uncovered it."

Mke

**UULC** · July 22nd, 2011, 01:59 PM

I am with both of you. I have applied to Phoenix for several jobs and never heard from them. When I worked in west Florida I would work with the "Investigator" and do my investigation ALL the time prior to him ever getting out there. It would take him a day or two to get out there. Grant you I was doing the DI for CLS on ComCast cable, but I would turn over my report and pictures of the damage with the hole open and my Hit Kits always showing the marks were good. On the rare occasion we were off I would tell him so and we would rat the bill.

Phoenix rarely got out there with the hole open.

**daman1** · July 22nd, 2011, 09:04 PM

There's a million technical reasons why a line gets marked wrong or not at all. Only a few are the result of a bad locator. I've investigated tons of damages so I'm two minded about it. On the one hand, it's somewhat of a conflict of interest for the locating firm to investigate their own damages. There's just no financial incentive for them to do anything but fight it. That being said, without experience locating, you could only pinpoint the source of the damage, not the individual at fault. Unless they hooked up themselves using the same equipment as used in the initial locate and tried all the tricks of the trade could they make that determination. I wouldn't mind a third party investigation. I just wouldn't want some outside investigator WITH NO LOCATING EXPERIENCE trying to hang a damage around me or my employers neck.

**sprayandpray** · July 23rd, 2011, 06:50 AM

I don't know about elsewhere, but here Phoenix goes to the damage site, takes their own photos and measurements, has access to our pre-dig and damage investigation photos and talks to the excavator if possible. They don't need to know all the ins and outs of locating because all our clients are interested in is 1. Was the damaged utility located? If so , how accurate were the marks. 2. If the utility wasn't located , did the excavator have a locate request and did they dig before or after the ticket was due. Then this info is turned over to the Utility.
I have dealt with these people multiple times and have found they were honest and straightforward.

As far as being experienced locators, do you really think AT&T's claims reps have ever located? Their repair techs do their on-site investigations and report back to the office weenies who then make the decisions. In fact, we have been told the past several years even the opinions of the techs and Wire Center managers are ignored by the AT&T claims department.

I have done hundreds of investigations and agree being a locator helps us with some claims, but don't under estimate the efficiency and accuracy a trained claims rep can bring to the table.

**daman1** · July 23rd, 2011, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by sprayandpray

I don't know about elsewhere, but here Phoenix goes to the damage site, takes their own photos and measurements, has access to our pre-dig and damage investigation photos and talks to the excavator if possible. They don't need to know all the ins and outs of locating because all our clients are interested in is 1. Was the damaged utility located? If so , how accurate were the marks. 2. If the utility wasn't located , did the excavator have a locate request and did they dig before or after the ticket was due. Then this info is turned over to the Utility.
I have dealt with these people multiple times and have found they were honest and straightforward.

As far as being experienced locator's, do you really think AT&T's claims reps have ever located? Their repair techs do their on-site investigations and report back to the office weenies who then make the decisions. In fact, we have been told the past several years even the opinions of the techs and Wire Center managers are ignored by the AT&T claims department.

I have done hundreds of investigations and agree being a locater helps us with some claims, but don't under estimate the efficiency and accuracy a trained claims rep can bring to the table.

Honesty is an individual trait so I assume they are about as honest as the general public. I welcome independent third party investigations. I think they can help to reduce bias on both sides of a damage. I only ask that if a damaged line was mismarked or not marked at all they not be too quick to assume it's the locator's fault. All a locator can do is put marks down where he gets a tone. Does it carry a signal ? When you hook up to it, does the signal run to the damage area or does it jump off and go somewhere else? If it won't run or goes in the wrong direction, why? Was it originally installed and bonded correctly? What's the condition of the bonding/tracer wire? Was there corrosion? Has it been spliced or repaired poorly in the past? Could the locator have been reasonably expected to catch these things? Without hooking up and having at least SOME experience, you can't answer a lot of these questions. Mismarked does not automatically imply fault and the utility doesn't always want to hear that their lines were marked wrong because it has been poorly installed or maintained.

**sprayandpray** · July 24th, 2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by daman1

Honesty is an individual trait so I assume they are about as honest as the general public. I welcome independent third party investigations. I think they can help to reduce bias on both sides of a damage. I only ask that if a damaged line was mismarked or not marked at all they not be too quick to assume it's the locator's fault. All a locator can do is put marks down where he gets a tone. Does it carry a signal ? When you hook up to it, does the signal run to the damage area or does it jump off and go somewhere else? If it won't run or goes in the wrong direction, why? Was it originally installed and bonded correctly? What's the condition of the bonding/tracer wire? Was there corrosion? Has it been spliced or repaired poorly in the past? Could the locator have been reasonably expected to catch these things? Without hooking up and having at least SOME experience, you can't answer a lot of these questions. Mismarked does not automatically imply fault and the utility doesn't always want to hear that their lines were marked wrong because it has been poorly installed or maintained.

Daman, I don't know where you live/work but here in Texas it really doesn't matter much anymore why a line was mis-marked or not marked. With our new contracts down here the facility owner no longer has any culpability in a damage situation. If the contractor acted correctly( dug after the due date - respected the 18" tolerance zone) then no matter what any of the other circumstances were , we are paying for the damage. Poor prints, unlocateable facility, none of that matters. It's really simple now - Either mark the facility accurately and have good pre-digs and investigation photos, or pay for the damage.
Of course if the locator notifies his Supervisor and follows his Sup's instructions on a trouble locate, and it is documented, the the Locator is protected. However, the company's still paying.
So, the Phoenix / 3rd party Investigators only have to know how to do an on-site investigation and don't need to know all the ins and outs of locating because the facility owners are no longer interested in hearing about non-toneable facilities or any other problems we encounter. They pay us to protect those facilities and we are responsible for timely, accurate locating - no one else. It sucks but it is the New Reality , at least here in Texas.

**JACKnBORE** · July 24th, 2011, 06:22 PM

If BBent spent 40 years with State Farm, he/she should stay retired. He/she is out here in the field not to make a difference but can't let go of the twisted world of fine print. There are usually extenuating circumstances to damaged utilities and some third party making the call won't allow them to be considered. There's no reason why a utility company/locate company can't handle these matters.Phoenix just another start-up to make money off of other peoples mistakes. They hope for stuff to get ripped out of the ground.

**daman1** · July 24th, 2011, 06:58 PM

Sounds like it's less about damage prevention & public safety than just figuring out who gets the bill. What's the incentive to maintain facilities if someone else will pay for the damage? I hope the gas/electric utilities aren't playing that game.

**6feetunder** · July 24th, 2011, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by daman1

Sounds like it's less about damage prevention & public safety than just figuring out who gets the bill. What's the incentive to maintain facilities if someone else will pay for the damage? I hope the gas/electric utilities aren't playing that game.

This is sad but true, it really isn't about damage prevention. It's all about MONEY, in one way or another. If it weren't everyone would handle their business in-house. The only reason contract locating exists is to save the utilities MONEY, that is reality. We all are simply an insurance company for the utilities. It's ingenious really, save on labor costs, have no liability in fault and not only that but make money off it when damages do occur!