USA does not work inductive/ cant sweep.

[Tim P]

I’m new to this site and love the things I’m reading but I have a question. I had a visit from a 3M rep to review the needs of locators at Line Find and while talking to him he said that down South locators did not work inductive/Sweep and or scan for PLS and Cable when working in the oil and gas industry. He explained that down South locators only work conductively/Hook up direct. How could you find anything unregistered or not on maps? I know it is a dumb question but I needed to ask.
Just to provoke a response I will end with Canada locators are better than USA. LOL

[GWJ_CAS]

I’m new to this site and love the things I’m reading but I have a question. I had a visit from a 3M rep to review the needs of locators at Line Find and while talking to him he said that down South locators did not work inductive/Sweep and or scan for PLS and Cable when working in the oil and gas industry. He explained that down South locators only work conductively/Hook up direct. How could you find anything unregistered or not on maps? I know it is a dumb question but I needed to ask.
Just to provoke a response I will end with Canada locators are better than USA. LOL

Your experience and statement explain why we are called all the way from Florida to locate in Mississauga because our clients there say that the Canadian locators just don't have what it takes....Go Figure...

Our locators do inductive sweeps and blind sweeps with GPR, but then again US locators are the best, just ask the folks in Mississauga who hire us...

Now who is LOL?

[yahoo]

bleed over like crazy!!!!! welcome to the site....ask your question again on Sunday night to get Monday's answers.....ok???

[yahoo]

good one dude.......

Your experience and statement explain why we are called all the way from Florida to locate in Mississauga because our clients there say that the Canadian locators just don't have what it takes....Go Figure...

Our locators do inductive sweeps and blind sweeps with GPR, but then again US locators are the best, just ask the folks in Mississauga who hire us...

Now who is LOL?

[ProfessionalLocator]

I’m new to this site and love the things I’m reading but I have a question. I had a visit from a 3M rep to review the needs of locators at Line Find and while talking to him he said that down South locators did not work inductive/Sweep and or scan for PLS and Cable when working in the oil and gas industry. He explained that down South locators only work conductively/Hook up direct. How could you find anything unregistered or not on maps? I know it is a dumb question but I needed to ask.
Just to provoke a response I will end with Canada locators are better than USA. LOL

Some locate firms prohibit inductive locates, been is such firms.
Those Canadians drink beer with twice the alcohol content of US beer. Through their beer goggles they just think they are better than US locators.

[Tim P]

Ontario does not have much of a oil and gas industry compared to Alberta so I would not imagine they have many field locators mostly city/Urban locators so I’m curios to what type of locating you were doing when u came up but none the less thanks for your help.
If you would like to come up again I can get you out locating in the Drayton Valley area for the winter on some seismic programs maybe we can ask our bosses to setup a locator exchange program.
When you said you do sweep inductively do you mean with your instrument or using GPR

[GWJ_CAS]

Ontario does not have much of a oil and gas industry compared to Alberta so I would not imagine they have many field locators mostly city/Urban locators so I’m curios to what type of locating you were doing when u came up but none the less thanks for your help.
If you would like to come up again I can get you out locating in the Drayton Valley area for the winter on some seismic programs maybe we can ask our bosses to setup a locator exchange program.
When you said you do sweep inductively do you mean with your instrument or using GPR

Both EM & GPR. We locate for several Oil & Gas companies, including 7,800 miles of petroleum pipeline here in the USA. During the summer months, I have two crews who locate in Alaska for O&G and Seismic projects and we locate at numerous "secure" facilities throughout the USA incluidng one on Pennsylvania Ave in the Capitol. We have also come up to locate some stuff for HydroOne that those Canadian guys just can't seem to figure out, eh!

We also do 3D radar/Radar Tomography/Acoustic Tomography and 3D EM for both utilities and O&G situations. We have proprietary 3D Systems where we locate miles and miles / acres and acres for various reasons and we do intricate 3D above and below ground mapping and modeling for refineries and power facilities.

I would be happy to do a locator exchange program, but I doubt you guys could handle the heat of the tropics...and since you are not US Citizens, you would not be able to enter many of the facilities where we work, so our options for you would be limited.

[Tim P]

Got to honest I dont understand 1/2 of what you wrote it sounds like your really into many areas of locating that Im unaware of.

You can put more clothes on to stay worm but you can only get so naked when it hot.

[Mke]

was the 3M rep trying to sell locating equipment? I just have trouble understanding the comment since most, if not all private locating down here is, and has to be done by induction. Which goes against everything taught when we were training to be public one-call locators. The majority of the locators down here are Public locators who are specifically told not to induce during their locates, by the company. The private locators are a small percentage of the locating. but none the less pull the trigger on their paint guns in some of the more challenging of areas.

And no this isn't a knock on Public guys, I know you guys dodge alot more traffic then us private guys, and have just as congested intersections to deal with.

I just know that you guys are handcuffed when it comes to induction, and induction is a godsend when trying to work your self through a conjested area.

mke

[[HAF]Foxtrot]

I’m new to this site and love the things I’m reading but I have a question. I had a visit from a 3M rep to review the needs of locators at Line Find and while talking to him he said that down South locators did not work inductive/Sweep and or scan for PLS and Cable when working in the oil and gas industry. He explained that down South locators only work conductively/Hook up direct. How could you find anything unregistered or not on maps? I know it is a dumb question but I needed to ask.
Just to provoke a response I will end with Canada locators are better than USA. LOL

Locator from the south here. Because if you drop a box here in the south your lighting up the whole ground, so which signal is which? Lets take this intersection for example. There is x2 50 pair, x2 36 Strand Fiber, 216 Strand Fiber, x5 600 Pair, 1200 Pair, x2 900 Pair, 100 Pair, 400 Pair, 300 Pair, and a double stacked Conduit Run. Plus you have Gas, Power, Sewer, Water, and DOT lines. Plus you have all the abandoned that was just left there when they upgraded lines/cut them off. So tell me what induction would do in this situation because the signal would be on everything.

[Paint'n & Flag'n]

Locator from the south here. Because if you drop a box here in the south your lighting up the whole ground, so which signal is which? Lets take this intersection for example. There is x2 50 pair, x2 36 Strand Fiber, 216 Strand Fiber, x5 600 Pair, 1200 Pair, x2 900 Pair, 100 Pair, 400 Pair, 300 Pair, and a double stacked Conduit Run. Plus you have Gas, Power, Sewer, Water, and DOT lines. Plus you have all the abandoned that was just left there when they upgraded lines/cut them off. So tell me what induction would do in this situation because the signal would be on everything.

I know when I left there be a shit load of paint on the ground thats for sure. Enough to cover all those cables x3

[Linerider]

There are top notch locators and shitheads everywhere. To say one country has a monopoly on the best guys is just silly. A few points:
1. I have done locate jobs in Oklahoma because the local guys they used couldn't be trusted. Was there no good guys in Oklahoma? Of course not! It just worked out that the guys they were using were no good and they couldn't afford trial and error to find someone who could do what they needed done. An engineer asks another engineer who says "hey, I know a company in Canada that does a hell of a job...let's get 'em down here". This happens. This is exactly why the Florida company went to Ontario to do work. Someone liked them and passed it on to the decision maker. There were guys in Toronto who could have done the job, they just didn't want to play the trial and error game.

2. I own a Sensoft noggin 250, that some consider the best for utility locating (made by a Canadian company btw) and it works in limited situations. It is only a little part of what's in my bag of tricks.

3. I too do 3D surveys, topo, GPR, and real EM Surveys (done with an EM 31 by Geonics - a Canadian company and world leader in EM) DOC, DOW, LMD and IR surveys. All is done with a real RTK GPS system. This is not exclusive to one side of the border. I have done many of these services in the US, Mexico, Peru and Brazil.

4. Our beer is stronger, but because I own property on both coasts of the US and spend a great deal of time there....your beer is still pretty great.

5. The body can acclimate to different temperatures in about 3 days. I have worked in 112F and -50F within 3 days of each other (Go from northern Alberta to Peru in January). No problem. I know that any one of you could work up here in the cold just as we can work in the heat.

6. I have a license from the US State Department that allows me to work on even the most secure locations in the US for everything from IR leak surveys to simple locating. Citizenship is not an issue if the proper channels have been taken.

The young fella asked about induction. In most of the US, (and any municipal environment Us or Canada) there is a place to hook on, or at least put a coil on to locate the structure. Anything that is in service is mapped and as long as it's located, that's all that matters. If there is a dead leg, or an in service structure that isn't mapped, and it gets hit, it's not the locators fault. Plus, often different companies will have structures within a dig area, so you have different guys locating different stuff putting down different marks.

In the oilpatch, third party locate jobs are the norm. All buried facilities within 30m (100ft) of a dig area are located by the third party in addition to whatever the individual facility owners have located through the 1-call system. The locates are carrie dout by 2 man crews who use whatever means necessary (direct, coil induce) to correctly identify buried structures. Ones the known structures are found, they are required to do 3-way 2-man inductive sweeps to make sure there are no unknown structures or no abandoned lines. If an excavator hits a dead line, it may not cause harm, but it costs downtime and the locator is an asshole. If the locator misses a live line, registered or not, he's an asshole. The main difference here, between municipal and oilpatch guys is the product in the line. Municipal guys deal with tons of cables (electrical, TV, Fibre etc), low pressure gas lines and some high pressure lines. Oiplatch field guys deal mostly with high pressure lines, but many also deal with sour gas lines. Hit a gas line=bad, maybe death if it's bad enough. Hit a sour gas line and you're dead. The gas will kill you with only 800-1000 ppm. Rupture a high pressure sour line and everyone in the area has a high probability of taking a dirt nap.

This is why the young fella was wondering about sweeping. His job requires that every pipe cable, remnant known and unknown be located no matter who actually owns it. In the city, hit a fibre line, service goes down and get in shit. In the patch, hit a sour line and everyone's dead.

Finally, I don't believe for a second that one country has a monopoly over the other in quality locators. Experience is the key.

[GWJ_CAS]

There are top notch locators and shitheads everywhere. To say one country has a monopoly on the best guys is just silly. A few points:
1. I have done locate jobs in Oklahoma because the local guys they used couldn't be trusted. Was there no good guys in Oklahoma? Of course not! It just worked out that the guys they were using were no good and they couldn't afford trial and error to find someone who could do what they needed done. An engineer asks another engineer who says "hey, I know a company in Canada that does a hell of a job...let's get 'em down here". This happens. This is exactly why the Florida company went to Ontario to do work. Someone liked them and passed it on to the decision maker. There were guys in Toronto who could have done the job, they just didn't want to play the trial and error game.

2. I own a Sensoft noggin 250, that some consider the best for utility locating (made by a Canadian company btw) and it works in limited situations. It is only a little part of what's in my bag of tricks.

3. I too do 3D surveys, topo, GPR, and real EM Surveys (done with an EM 31 by Geonics - a Canadian company and world leader in EM) DOC, DOW, LMD and IR surveys. All is done with a real RTK GPS system. This is not exclusive to one side of the border. I have done many of these services in the US, Mexico, Peru and Brazil.

6. I have a license from the US State Department that allows me to work on even the most secure locations in the US for everything from IR leak surveys to simple locating. Citizenship is not an issue if the proper channels have been taken.

Finally, I don't believe for a second that one country has a monopoly over the other in quality locators. Experience is the key.

Well said...

Questions and comments for you...

1. You state that you do RTK, are you a licensed surveyor? If not, who certifies your data?
2. We have a Noggin system, it sits in the warehouse 99.9% of the time (so does the GSSI stuff we own). We own 58 Mala GPR systems. We like Mala much better. S&S and GSSI are Windows CE based operating systems and you cannot change settings/parameters in mid-profile without losing earlier data and/or starting over. Mala systems are Linux based and we can infinitely change settings/parameters mid-profile without losing any data.
3. We have several EM61 systems by Geonics, they make great stuff. What software do you use for displaying/reporting your EM data? We use Surfer for simple projects and Oasis Montaj for the complex ones...
4. I would be interested to learn what type of "license" you have from our state department...we locate at several secure military facilities in the US, but I have a few guys that are not US Citizens and despite their clearance and ability to locate at secure military facilities, there are several CIA/NSA/"Military" facilities that they cannot even enter, especially the one at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave...they could enter there as a guest, even tour the house, but they cannot actually work inside the fence...at least before the current jackwad was elected, haven't tried since.

Experience though, that is the true factor. No matter where you are from, what language you speak, if you know your stuff and can get the job done right, then you are the man for the job.

Cheers,

[FiosKing]

cant find it on a map huh? drop me anywhere in the world i dont need no stinkin maps or prints... if its in the ground ill find it

[spencer newson]

I know when I left there be a shit load of paint on the ground thats for sure. Enough to cover all those cables x3

good answer dude it don't matter how much paint is on the ground as long as the services are marked clearly