Taking photos of HP pot hole verification....

[USIC1]

With all the latest microscoping steps related to contract locating, ie photos of locates, offsets, manifests, etc imagine management instituting photos of potholing all HP's...

eeeehhhmmm!?!?

Imagine that thought getting instituted???

You think most companys could afford staying solvent instituting the mother of all steps of dotting I's and crossing the T's for the SO VITAL HP's???

I think most companies will let locators be fall guys lest the whole ship sink from revenue short falls if TRUE HP PHOTO verification evidence was instituted...

Interesting thought though...eeehh???

the buc$ has to stop somewhere...

[TheCableVine]

Sounds like someone is trying to plant ideas.

[Mke]

I'm on-site when ever utilities are pot-holed. I'm usually the annoying guy wandering around the hole telling the Vac guys to move one way or another, or go deeper. When they do come accross the utility I take photo's when applicable (easier said then done when your down 11' or so). Top that off, I'm usually taking measure downs to top of structure for design elevations.... Does all that count for "mother of all" steps?

mke

[USIC1]

I'm on-site when ever utilities are pot-holed. I'm usually the annoying guy wandering around the hole telling the Vac guys to move one way or another, or go deeper. When they do come accross the utility I take photo's when applicable (easier said then done when your down 11' or so). Top that off, I'm usually taking measure downs to top of structure for design elevations.... Does all that count for "mother of all" steps?

mke

Well if your SUE its a given to take required time to account for facilities...

In contract locating POTHOLING is preached but often not enforced (until a damage occurs and a locator is thrown under the bus for not performing ALL locate steps)...

Imagine 10000 plus contract locators across the country potholing HP's on every locate ticket daily with a strictly enforced verified (photo)standard- besides labor and revenue sinking the company, how bout the risk of whacks from post hole diggers or shovel blades as locators rush to manage areas and ticket loads... And how bout the guys that cant pot hole crap in the frozen tundras or under paved areas???

*I guess one could carry around short lengths of cable or pipe dig a shallow hole and snap a pic*

BUT THE REALITY FOLKS!?!?! utilize all the steps on every locate...hhhmmm??? Really???

How bout this reality-

The fall guy oath-
as long as locators recognize the company will hold them responsible for using all steps on every locate thats good enough...

The outsourcing and lowballing related to accounting for facilities, and the hidden compromises made and cast upon the backs of the lowly scabs who come and go...

Will we be remembered for our sacrifices like honorable soldiers for less than honorable acts to reach the common goals???

Putting food on the table...

Can we rise above the daily regime of-

"dirty deeds done dirt cheap"

Carry on Fellow Artists


opcornsmile:

[Mke]

USIC, you wanna see the real writing on the wall?

Companies in my area are now Surveying utilities as they are being placed. In situations where a construction company uncovers any utilities they are surveying said uncovered utilities. With the survey equipment now, our surveyors can take these previously installed utilities and locate them in the field with alignments that are within .10in. and give coresponding depths on the utilities.

Matter of Fact, the CGA expo has a seminar about damage prevention and the use of GPS surveyed information. You have to start wondering with the ability to share surveyed information, coupled with the usage of vac trucks when, not if, but when locators will start being phased out completely?

Your probably thinking, won't happen, not cost effective? Most construction companies rent the survey equipment and usually have a someone on the grading crew that can run the survey equipment so they won't have to involve anyone, but someone from within the company.

mke

[GPGrasshopper]

I don't think anyone is willing to pay for centimeter grade GPS. Most units are anywhere from 1-10 meters. No contractor is going to pothole an area that big to find a line. With that said, I doubt very seriously if anything in our lifetime will replace the paint on the ground. In order to accomplish that, you would also have to require everybody that digs to have GPS to find the mapped utilities. How many contractors are going to go buy that equipment and get trained on interpreting GPS cordinate points and GIS mapping systems used by the utilities? I would wager not many. Not to mention the increased liability the contractors would carry for being responsible for locates.

[Goldenboy]

I think it all depends where you live as far as a locator potholing a HP line. Where I live in hard rocky soil land it can take an hour or two to dig up a line that's only 3 feet deep. If I had to dig up every HP line I marked I'd be on my first job all day. I'd never get anything done.

If you lived in an area that had sandy solid soil it wouldn't be a big deal to dig up lines.

[Mke]

Well the construction companies that work around here either Rent, or own the better GPS. Most of the large grading jobs done around here are done using machine control (controled by gps coordinates). For around here its verry plausible that construction companies will try to cut out locates and stick with Surveyed information.

The only thing stopping them is most are not smart enough to connect the dots between getting the surveyed information, and having their surveyors lay out the utilities.

with all likely hood this won't happen anytime soon, but it is a possibility.
I have worked with survey to lay out an unlocateable line that they had previously surveyed. When the contractor dug down to tap the line, survey was well within any tollerance on their marks.

mke

[ProfessionalLocator]

I don't think anyone is willing to pay for centimeter grade GPS. Most units are anywhere from 1-10 meters. No contractor is going to pothole an area that big to find a line. With that said, I doubt very seriously if anything in our lifetime will replace the paint on the ground. In order to accomplish that, you would also have to require everybody that digs to have GPS to find the mapped utilities. How many contractors are going to go buy that equipment and get trained on interpreting GPS cordinate points and GIS mapping systems used by the utilities? I would wager not many. Not to mention the increased liability the contractors would carry for being responsible for locates.

I agree, there are legal problems here.
It would require the state to completely rewrite their call before you dig laws. They would have to require that the utility companies provide, with or without a fee, full prints of all their utilities on demand. Homeland Security for one would raise serious objections to this.

Since even homeowners planting in their yards have to call in a ticket it would not be even remotely reasonable to require them to have the skills to be able to dig based on drawings.

Landscape firms, fence companies, service drop installers, the list goes on.
Read detailed drawings? Heck, most of these guys don't speak English!

I think the real thing what would stop reliance on just following utility survey maps is the reason for the call before you dig laws, protection of human life and limb. As I recall these laws started after a gas line was hit resulting in an explosion at a school killing several children, Georgia I think. The legislature is where any change must occur and I doubt that the state will remove the requirement from a positive on site locate to nonprofessionals following some drawings.

The laws require that utilities be marked, not just drawings followed.

True, sometimes a utility cannot be located and is marked per drawing but this is only after the utility is deemed unlocatable.

[Mke]

Professional Locator,
I'm not refering to drawing or prints, or even uneducated labor. I'm talking about PLSIT's and such, people who make more then we do.

And your are right, homeowners will still not be able to take coordinates and lay out utilities. However Fence installs, landscape companies, and general contractors usually have access to surveyors... Who do you think marks out property corners or alignments for fences? (talking outside of homeowners). Or maybe I just see that stuff here, and it hasn't reached as far as you guys yet. Then again, i'm mostly industrial so I don't get many Residential tickets.

I think what i'm getting at, is the fact that i've seen too many locators get lulled into a false sense of security about how stable the industry is. If contract locators "f" things up enough, utility owners will look for a different way to do business, they are the ones that changed from in-house locates to Contract locates. Its not a far jump for them to change again.

As for the One-call system, they will still notify people of digs....... they will just be handled by a different company...... its just that simple.

mke

[ProfessionalLocator]

Professional Locator,
I'm not refering to drawing or prints, or even uneducated labor. I'm talking about PLSIT's and such, people who make more then we do.

And your are right, homeowners will still not be able to take coordinates and lay out utilities. However Fence installs, landscape companies, and general contractors usually have access to surveyors... Who do you think marks out property corners or alignments for fences? (talking outside of homeowners). Or maybe I just see that stuff here, and it hasn't reached as far as you guys yet. Then again, i'm mostly industrial so I don't get many Residential tickets.

I think what i'm getting at, is the fact that i've seen too many locators get lulled into a false sense of security about how stable the industry is. If contract locators "f" things up enough, utility owners will look for a different way to do business, they are the ones that changed from in-house locates to Contract locates. Its not a far jump for them to change again.

As for the One-call system, they will still notify people of digs....... they will just be handled by a different company...... its just that simple.

mke

I have also considered these things at length and indeed contract locators can be eliminated, but it is not “just that simple”.

First off it cannot happen from the builders / contractors end or the utility company end, it must come from state legislature. State legislature puts the legal responsibility to mark underground utilities on the owners of those utilities. Firms like Pacific Gas and Electric, Colonial Pipeline, the CATV companies and the various phone companies.

So the first thing is to have the legal responsibility taken away from the professionals in the filed, the utility companies, and then put onto nonprofessionals. Getting such legislation passed is a massive effort and you can bet every contractor lobbyist, PAC and organization will oppose such action.

On a quick note; fence tickets. Most residential fence tickets get no survey crews. At most I have seen a guy show up with a property plat drawing and a tape measure. He marks out an area to install the fence. Many contractors that do this are not exclusively fence companies but general contactors who do a bit of everything. It is not uncommon for a homeowner to point and say put a fence there. The contractor puts the fence wherever the homeowner says. Ask a real estate professional about the term “encroachment”, fences put onto other people’s properties are not uncommon.

True, the utility companies could take their locating back in house. The thing here is local politics and internal company politics.

Every state has some version of a department / commission that regulates the various utilities. Most jurisdictions require the utility companies to file with them for permission to get rate increases. The voting public pressures government to keep rate increases down and the local department / commission passes this pressure onto the utility companies.

For the utility companies to take the locating back in house they would have to reequip, rebuild a professional workforce and management team that is long gone. Rebuilding their lost skilled workers and managers can be done, but is a difficult task. Each company has it’s own characteristics but many have the ‘old boy’ system. Their employees and manages have worked for the firm since their were 21 or younger, they are loath to hire ‘outsiders’. It can be done but for some of these firms their corporate environment discourages this.

I think the main impediment to going back in house is the expense of reequipping. All new vehicles though leasing would reduce initial cost. They have to find space in their buildings for the restarted operation. They could initially lease industrial space but most of these firms prefer to own their own buildings. The equipment they would have to purchase what, enough equipment outfit 50 to 100 locators? This may be small change to a large corporation but all these expenses they have to justify to the local government department / commission that regulates rates.

So for contract locating firms to as an industry lose these clients is possible but unlikely.

There is one way that such a change could occur but I will not discuss it. It is not a subject I have heard bouncing around the industry and is a hornets nest I will not stir up. What ever happens experienced personal will be needed to put paint down.
Spreading such an idea is a threat to every manager, who would be in less demand, and stockholder in the locating industry. It do not wish to put forward any ideas that threaten the employment of the managers, some of the locators and all of the stockholders.

I have to say the biggest threat to the job security of the locators is their employers losing the contract. Sure it goes to another firm but they already have their locators and do not need all the locators from the firm that lost the contract.

[6feetunder]

SIC1 , this is already in place in certain markets, don't be surprised if it spreads. In certain contracts in certain states it's already required for utility locators to pothole the facility immediately upon locate to verify markings are correct. My question would be, would the facility owner themselves require their people to pothole the facility if they had in-house locating. My guess would be no, too costly, even in the sand. The point is at the end of the day the customer wants to cover as many avenues as they can to not have to eat any damages. For instance say you get a facility that tones great but is wrong and it gets hit, the facility owner in most cases will eat the damage due to the circumstances. If it's in the contract that the facility must be pot-holed upon locate then by all rights even if it tones wrong, the locating company will eat it because by contract the locator should have dug it up and verified that the marks were indeed accurate. At the end of the day don't let them fool you, it's not about protecting the facility, it's about liability and protecting the bottom line. Utilities make money on damages, period, they are just working on ways to maximize profit from them by not having any liability.