Surveys

[noOT4me]

I am looking for info about how different states handle survey tickets.

Are the contract locators expected to conduct such tickets or are the engineering firms responsible?

Do the same time constraints apply?

What are the various one call center policies on such?

[orangeboots]

in iowa you pay the one call a fee to join as a survey company contract locator's have 7 days to complete the survey but almost all of them lie to the call center and say they are doing some bs digging so its a normal notice ticket due in 48 hours.

[Mke]

In Oregon and Washington we have two work weeks....... 10working days to complete survey requests. However, most of every one barely responds. I've personally called in survey tickets and at the end of the time frame I not only had no paint, but no one sent maps, or called me to let me know what they were doing. Go figure. Some survey companies try to skirt the law and will call in tickets for "driving iron rods" but they will call in a 1/2mile of road, and only drive in 3 rods. They will also try to tell you that they don't know exactly where the rods are going, so they need the whole thing located............ They lie

Mke

[FreedMan]

"They lie." - That about sums it up. In NC we get a 10 day window to mark survey tickets; some do, some don't. I used to ask my guys to try and work them in if time allowed, but knew that most were blowing them off. That's when we KNEW it was a survey. As others have already noted, many survey/design folks cheat and call in saying they are laying pipe, driving rods. etc. but after the first time or two we catch on and the offenders generally get bogus marks. I don't endorse this, it's simply the truth of what I've seen. Having worked in SUE a few years, I understand what these folks need, and usually try to at least call and offer some suggestions for people to contact to get maps, and I used to even recommend private locators (now I would recommend ME)

Personally, I believe one-call/811 should be for real time dig tickets only, especially now that I've been inside the belly of the beast that is the management end of contract locating just a bit. As has been expressed by many before me, contract locating is a cut throat, low-ball industry for the most part. There are plenty of really great techs, sups, and even a few managers and owners out there who sincerely want to prevent damages. Unfortunately, so many of the utility companies only pay lip service to damage prevention as a PR thing and a way of washing their hands of liability, real damage prevention becomes secondary to profit motives and quality goes out the door. Survey tickets are viewed as free money which generate few negative repercussions when ignored. Again, not my idea of how things ought to be handled, only the truth of what I've witnessed.

If you want a utility survey info, hire a consultant, if you're gonna dig day after tomorrow, call 811.

Sorry for the rant.

[Mke]

I think Survey tickets would be great training locates. Locators with less then a years experience get all the survey requests. It gives them hands on experience, without the threat of excavation.

I personally don't think survey requests should be contracted out, or forgotten about. I think that Surevey requets (usually) are the first step in the construction process. I have been personally responsibly for helping re-route pending utility installs due to utility congestioin. The only way I was able to do it, was locating it for the survey process and pushed for them to avoid the existing utilities. Most of the times the Engineers know exactly how to design a new utility install, but If they were advised of obstructions they can do preventative steps to ease the liability (Potholing to existing utilities to verify depth and location) of construction.

However, most of the contract locating firms treat these as garbage locates. Marking once every 100' or so. Then when they design a Sewer line to right next to their fiber duct, they are a little pissed off.

Sorry for the counter rant =)

[Turk182]

I don't do them at all, and I have never had one called in as a no show, which is required before digging here. It is not my job to save survey companies the cost of an SUE. Most of the survey companies in my area know this and call in a meet request, knowing I will gladly tell them what might be there, but that I will not waste my time painting it for them.

[HWYRIPR]

Here is what we in Virginia are to do when a designer ticket is submitted in accordanace with the Damage Prevention Act of Virginia.....

§ 56-265.17:3. Procedures for operators in response to a designer notice.

An operator, upon notification by a designer in accordance with § 56-265.17:1, shall:

1. Respond to the designer's request for underground utility line information within fifteen working days in accordance with subdivisions 2, 3, and 4 of this section;

2. Provide designers with the operator's name, the type of underground utility line, and the approximate horizontal location of the utility line. The foregoing information may be provided to the designer through the means that include, but are not limited to, field locates, maps, surveys, installation records or other means. If the designer requests field locates, the operator shall provide field locates in accordance with the accuracy set forth in subsection A of § 56-265.19. Marking shall be done by both paint and flags whenever possible;

3. Provide such information about the location of the utility lines to designers for informational purposes only. Operators will not be liable for any incorrect information provided or for the subsequent use of this information, nor will they be subject to civil penalties for the accuracy of the information or marks provided. Any concerns about the accuracy of information or marks should be directed to the appropriate operator; and

4. Respond to the operator-excavator information exchange system by no later than 7:00 a.m. on the sixteenth working day following the designer's notice to the notification center.

(2002, c. 841.)

Here are the designers responsibilities....



§ 56-265.17:1. Notification and procedures for designers.

A. Each designer, who prepares drawings and plans for projects requiring excavation or demolition work, may notify the notification center and provide the center with the information required by § 56-265.18 and the designer's professional license number.

B. If a designer notifies the notification center to receive underground utility line information in accordance with § 56-265.17:3, the designer shall:

1. Indicate on the construction drawings, the type of underground utility lines, the horizontal location of these lines as provided by the operators, and the names of the operators of these lines;

2. Consider, when designing a project and preparing drawings therefor, the location of existing underground lines so as to minimize damage or interference with the existing facilities;

3. Indicate, on the construction plans or drawings, the designer ticket number and the notification center's toll-free number; and

4. Request only one designer ticket per project through the notification center at no cost.

(2002, c. 841.)

[locatingblows]

I worked as a Land Surveyor for years and then I did utility locating for a couple when the economy took a downturn. Truth is, any warm body can locate, but few have what it takes to be a Land Surveyor. I am glad I am surveying again because the useless tools (bosses) at USIC are just that: useless. And the job was a demeaning, low-paying dead-end job.

[ProfessionalLocator]

Here is what we in Virginia are to do when a designer ticket is submitted in accordanace with the Damage Prevention Act of Virginia.....

<SNIP>
(2002, c. 841.) [/COLOR]

Design tickets come in as dig tickets all the time. Those calling them in call then "survey" tickets and there is a category for survey that is in the dig ticket category. This category is for installing survey markers and stakes, not for a design project.

Some of this is probably because they do not want to wait 15 working days. But I think a big part of it is that the companies that do this work internally call their work "survey" and the one call center does not know how to question the caller to determine if it really is a dig ticket. I got something like 9 tickets that when I called was told they were for the feasibility study for a proposed light rail. The guy that called them in called them as "survey" tickets becasue that is what they call this type of work at their firm.

I had one for excavating to expose utilities, test pitting, so that they could plan a daycare center. Sure they were going to expose the utilities but it was part of the planning process.

In Virginia design tickets are entered as dig tickets as a matter of routine.

[sprayandpray]

I worked as a Land Surveyor for years and then I did utility locating for a couple when the economy took a downturn. Truth is, any warm body can locate, but few have what it takes to be a Land Surveyor. I am glad I am surveying again because the useless tools (bosses) at USIC are just that: useless. And the job was a demeaning, low-paying dead-end job.

Well, you sound exactly like management - anyone can locate. If that's true how come very few of us actually make a career of it? I had a fellow go back to surveying because it was a lot harder and more stressful than surveying. Glad you're out of the industry. By the way, what is your title now - Assistant Stick Holder?

[Dave72]

From my end, a locate is a locate. You do your best to indicate where your util is. Special requests like a meet on site for precision marking around some area.. ok.. no problem.
We typically run about 5 days out in the busy season for booked locates, seems to work fine.
What ticks me off is when someone calls is for an 'emergency' locate , but its really just for planned work the next day.
Locates called in for a survey are just like any other. Locate the utility.
Why do some people think that unless the request comes with some justification loaded into it, then it deserves a crappy effort ?

[RD_Wrangler]

From my end, a locate is a locate. You do your best to indicate where your util is. Special requests like a meet on site for precision marking around some area.. ok.. no problem.
We typically run about 5 days out in the busy season for booked locates, seems to work fine.
What ticks me off is when someone calls is for an 'emergency' locate , but its really just for planned work the next day.
Locates called in for a survey are just like any other. Locate the utility.
Why do some people think that unless the request comes with some justification loaded into it, then it deserves a crappy effort ?

Why? Because survey companies are well known for calling ridiculously extensive tickets, often for MILES in high traffic, congested areas, when most often they are simply drawing the stuff in. I've had the pleasure of observing some of the platts produced by these survey companies. The vast majority don't even have offset footages, enclosure symbols, etc...

I'm sorry, but I'm not spending hours working on miles of locates, letting my other tickets stack up or go late, just so they can sketch in the general area of lines in the ground...they can get that information from the utility companies for free.

I got people putting buckets in the ground, don't bother me with your design stuff until you're ready to pothole thank you.

[ProfessionalLocator]

Why? Because survey companies are well known for calling ridiculously extensive tickets, often for MILES in high traffic, congested areas, when most often they are simply drawing the stuff in. I've had the pleasure of observing some of the platts produced by these survey companies. The vast majority don't even have offset footages, enclosure symbols, etc...

I'm sorry, but I'm not spending hours working on miles of locates, letting my other tickets stack up or go late, just so they can sketch in the general area of lines in the ground...they can get that information from the utility companies for free.

I got people putting buckets in the ground, don't bother me with your design stuff until you're ready to pothole thank you.

You got that right, it can take hours to mark out just one utility, if you have several utilities to mark one of these tickets can take the day. I spent three hours marking just one utility on a recent "survey" ticket. It is because of the amount of work required that they paid off the state to allow these tickets to be done for free, it costs lots of money to have an SUE firm do this.

As for those of us in the contract locate industry that dislike this we have VERY good reasons.

We are dependent on the firms we work for being profitable and staying in business. Our firms get paid by the ticket, not by the hours of time these things take to do. Our firms lose money on every one of these jobs.

Us locators get a pay rate based largely on our hourly production rate, every one of these tickets is a pay cut for us.

On another note these survey / design / planing firms pass on the cost that they should be paying to the utility firms which must pass that cost onto their customers. The whole thing stinks no matter how you look at it.

These survey / design tickets or whatever anybody wants to call them belong with the SUE firms, NOT the Call Before You Dig tickets.

[locator00566]

[QUOTE=ProfessionalLocator;30969]
Us locators get a pay rate based largely on our hourly production rate, every one of these tickets is a pay cut for us.

Unless you work for USIC, you would get a pay cut and bitched at if you did 100 tickets a day.

USIC=USUK

[ihoby]

I believe I worked with this guy! While it is true that anyone can locate "not everyone" has what it takes to be a locator. This gent did nopt have what it took and had a general negitive attitude about locating as evident by his last sentence.

I worked as a Land Surveyor for years and then I did utility locating for a couple when the economy took a downturn. Truth is, any warm body can locate, but few have what it takes to be a Land Surveyor. I am glad I am surveying again because the useless tools (bosses) at USIC are just that: useless. And the job was a demeaning, low-paying dead-end job.