The lowest price

**paintman** · March 7th, 2010, 07:52 PM

The lowest price for locates is killing the locate companys, the utiliies most of the time go with the lowest company price. I think the companys need to work together, but it want never happen, , for setting a price for locate , there are so many locate company out there now, I have been locating for 12 years now and the price has done nothing but go down sence i started. How low can we take the price, my world its hard to make money now, WHAT IN THE WORLD CAN WE DO TO STOP THIS

THANKS, PANITMAN

**GPGrasshopper** · March 7th, 2010, 09:19 PM

There is not much you can do as long as there is someone willing to low ball. The only real solution is for utility companies to realize the true value of protecting their infrastructure and award contracts to those that demonstrate not how low they can bid, but how well they perform the work.

**ProfessionalLocator** · March 7th, 2010, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by paintman

The lowest price for locates is killing the locate companys, the utiliies most of the time go with the lowest company price. I think the companys need to work together, but it want never happen, , for setting a price for locate , there are so many locate company out there now, I have been locating for 12 years now and the price has done nothing but go down sence i started. How low can we take the price, my world its hard to make money now, WHAT IN THE WORLD CAN WE DO TO STOP THIS

THANKS, PANITMAN

If the locate companies got together to set the price of a locate they would be guilty of "price fixing" under antitrust laws and subject to prosecution at either the state or federal level.

In addition those that suffered from price fixing have the option to sue for damages and many of these antitrust laws allow penalties of two or three times the actual damages.

So you got it right when you said the locate companies would not get together and do anything.

**ifinditunderground** · March 7th, 2010, 09:46 PM

Price Fixing=Collusion=Illegal

**yahoo** · March 8th, 2010, 08:39 PM

I agree ....there is no way ever to fix a set price...good idea to control the set amount for a locate but someone willl always try to come up with a different and cheaper approach......

**OVUS1** · March 9th, 2010, 09:23 AM

My brother-in-law owns a mechanics shop. When people come in for estimates, he has a book that basically lists every conceivable vehicle repair and the associated time with each repair. I think all mechanical shops use this same book. Why can't the locating industry come up with a similar book that "suggests" pricing: Single locate = $, Double locate = $$, Triple locate = $$$, after hours = $, weekend work = $, site surveillance = $. Work in an increase formula when fuel prices go up or ticket volumes go down. Locate Companies have set pricing that we have to follow when we bid a multi-year contract (pretty dangerous to predict that far ahead on pricing), and rarely is there any contractual consideration for changing events out of our control (ticket volumes have decreased DRAMATICALLY over the past two years not to mention the insane swings in fuel prices). I think the mechanic's book "suggests" work time relative to whatever the hourly rate that the individual shop charges, but most shops are within a few dollars of each other in order to stay competitive. Just a thought......

**Locatingart** · March 9th, 2010, 01:37 PM

You people need to stop this bull **** complaining When a company can take 10% of your pay away for no reason. They have your balls in the palm of there hand. Locating companies or Utility companies dont care about you. Wake up!!!

**ProfessionalLocator** · March 9th, 2010, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Locatingart

You people need to stop this bull **** complaining When a company can take 10% of your pay away for no reason. They have your balls in the palm of there hand. Locating companies or Utility companies dont care about you. Wake up!!!

Yes, ELM cut their locators pay 10%. Is there anything new you can give on this int he ELM paycuts thread?
http://www.thecablevine.com/forum/sh...3-ELM-locators
I saw your post there where the ELM locators are hiring on at other firms and they are taking in new locators at $9.50 an hour.
Little details add up, things like what are the levels of experience the lost locators are taking to their competitors and how many of the new hires are raw trainees.

**Locatingart** · March 9th, 2010, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator

Yes, ELM cut their locators pay 10%. Is there anything new you can give on this int he ELM paycuts thread?
http://www.thecablevine.com/forum/sh...3-ELM-locators
I saw your post there where the ELM locators are hiring on at other firms and they are taking in new locators at $9.50 an hour.
Little details add up, things like what are the levels of experience the lost locators are taking to their competitors and how many of the new hires are raw trainees.

Thank you Cablevine police

**FiosKing** · March 9th, 2010, 03:46 PM

if they cut your pay by 10% why do you stay? or better yet... ALL of your crew not come to work untill they fix the problem... they cant fire you all and cant bring in brand new people that quick... a strike would def work

**ProfessionalLocator** · March 9th, 2010, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by FiosKing

if they cut your pay by 10% why do you stay? or better yet... ALL of your crew not come to work untill they fix the problem... they cant fire you all and cant bring in brand new people that quick... a strike would def work

Without a union a strike is very difficult to get together. Everybody says okay for Monday and then everybody but a few show up. The few that do not come in get fired.

The police handled these things with "blue flu" where everybody called in sick at the same time. Firing people for calling in sick presents a problem if they are only off for a day or two and there is no preset requirement to visit a doctor. Firing these people without proof that they falsely called in sick opens to a class action lawsuit which would be hard to defeat.

**Linerider** · March 10th, 2010, 06:09 PM

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

**ProfessionalLocator** · March 10th, 2010, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Linerider

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

A good saying but my take on some of this cheap labor I have met is more like Beavis and Butthead.

My favorite was the drug dealer who used the company truck to work out of.

**Utilitrack** · March 10th, 2010, 07:22 PM

In my opinion the answer lies with the utility companies, they must be forced into a shift in their thinking by the regulating bodies of each state whether it be the PUC or DPu's etc. To demand lowest pricing with ever growing demands for quality does not compute. Evidently the utility companies cannot figure it out so it must be dictated to them.

Utility companies view contract locating firms as insurance policies, the utility can never be liable for a damage that way, and they will always be able to collect on the damage. Large utility companies have been arm twisting many locating firms for years to lower per locate costs, sometimes in the double digits of percents, which may by the way explain ELM's recent pay cut.

Obviously price fixing is illegal, but beyond that their is an inherant distrust of all locate companies. None of them would trust the others to follow through with any kind of agreement.
The only way to get the pricing going in the right direction is if each company actually joined aa association like NULCA and 100% agreed to all play by the same rules- same training standards,same pay scales, no predatory recruitment of competitors employees etc. For example company "A" hires and trains all new locators in-house exceeding NULCA standards, company "B"- recruits all of company "A" employees and can pay them a little more hourly because they don't have any of the recruiting or training costs that company "A" does. In my opinion this is an unfair business practice that could be solved if every company agreed to operate ethically. That way everyone is playing on the same playing field and quality and efficiency would be the deciding factors on new contracts.

**ProfessionalLocator** · March 10th, 2010, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Utilitrack

In my opinion the answer lies with the utility companies, they must be forced into a shift in their thinking by the regulating bodies of each state whether it be the PUC or DPu's etc. To demand lowest pricing with ever growing demands for quality does not compute. Evidently the utility companies cannot figure it out so it must be dictated to them.

Utility companies view contract locating firms as insurance policies, the utility can never be liable for a damage that way, and they will always be able to collect on the damage. Large utility companies have been arm twisting many locating firms for years to lower per locate costs, sometimes in the double digits of percents, which may by the way explain ELM's recent pay cut.

Obviously price fixing is illegal, but beyond that their is an inherant distrust of all locate companies. None of them would trust the others to follow through with any kind of agreement.
The only way to get the pricing going in the right direction is if each company actually joined aa association like NULCA and 100% agreed to all play by the same rules- same training standards,same pay scales, no predatory recruitment of competitors employees etc. For example company "A" hires and trains all new locators in-house exceeding NULCA standards, company "B"- recruits all of company "A" employees and can pay them a little more hourly because they don't have any of the recruiting or training costs that company "A" does. In my opinion this is an unfair business practice that could be solved if every company agreed to operate ethically. That way everyone is playing on the same playing field and quality and efficiency would be the deciding factors on new contracts.

I agree that the answer is with the utility firms, the locating firms are too busy competing with each other to get anything together.
The question is how to get the utility firms to demand better service.
I think the key to this is money.

While the utility companies use the locate firms for "insurance" this is only for the actual cost of the damage and not collateral damage.
The utility firms will pay more for quality when their corporate shields are pierced. When a utility hires a cut rate firm with poorly trained and poorly performing locators and someone is killed or severely injured due to bad marks and they loose millions, then the firms will start to think quality.

Locate firms are not painters or carpet installers. They are not hired for work that is not the actual business of the utility firms. The locating of underground utilities is mandated by law but this law commands the utility firms to mark the utilities, not the locate firms. The locate firms are an extension of the utility firms and the utility firms can be as liable for this type of contractors actions as they are for their own employees.

If a utility firm hires a cut rate firm, or just a firm that does not provide safe marks, they are just as liable as if their own employees had done this. Because hiring a firm that does poor work, or keeping a firm that degrades to doing poor work, is contrary to the purpose of the call before you dig laws. So price is secondary to hiring a locate firm from the standpoint of legal liability.

Equally someone inside the utility firm makes the decision of which locating contract bid to accept. Generally these people are free of personal liability but their is a situation where they are not. If the people making the decision are aware of the danger of accepting a bid that may result in a death or injury they become personally liable. It must be beyond knowing that the marking is for a dangerous utility like gas or electric but that the firm they hire must be able to safely perform the job. Just accepting the lowest bid does not relieve them of the responsibility to research the bidding contractors for their ability to properly do the job.

Even if the liability falls upon the locating firm there will be people in position to award the contract who will only be concerned with the quarterly result making them look good. Let some Presidents, VPs and Board Members lose their homes and the rest of the industry will be more careful.

How does this happen? Well for one a professional association like the one proposed on this site (remember the poll for a name?) has a built in intelligence network with it's members and this site. They find such events with injuries and make sure the injured party's attorney gets the damaging information and the idea of how to sue the utility firm. It requires playing hardball with a steel bat.