Locator Certification

[Locatingart]

People you are living in a world that is not real. Ask yourself this. Who is going to pay for this training? I was talking to one of are Newbie At SM&P and he open told me. he is getting paid $10.00 a hour Why would he pay for training that he cant afoord and a company who is willing to pay him that Bull**** wage is not going to pay for it. Oh I know maybe United Way will step in and help are fellow locator who barely put food on the table. Stop worry about training and start fighting for the poor saps that are getting treat like sh**

[Locatingart]

Sorry for the mistakes in spelling I am a little pissed off at SM&P

[underground quester]

what is the chance that this would ever take place?????

Good question Yahoo. Man, most times I like to think I am a "glass half full kind of guy" so am thinking it may come but probably not very fast. If the initiative in Florida takes root, that in itself will take time to have everyone agree on what is needed.

With all stakeholders holding somewhat opposing views, could be like mating elephants...lots of grunting, groaning, earth shaking, but not much action.
My guess, if it happens, the process would take two years to get everything in place and up and running. There is just TOO much to do.

[underground quester]

People you are living in a world that is not real. Ask yourself this. Who is going to pay for this training? I was talking to one of are Newbie At SM&P and he open told me. he is getting paid $10.00 a hour Why would he pay for training that he cant afoord and a company who is willing to pay him that Bull**** wage is not going to pay for it. Oh I know maybe United Way will step in and help are fellow locator who barely put food on the table. Stop worry about training and start fighting for the poor saps that are getting treat like sh**

Hey there Locatingart:

This whole area of training is a somewhat sensitive area. I started at the bottom, worked my way to senior mgmt. Left, went back to school, started and ran my own business, sold my business and took on locating "until I could find a real job". But guess what, I ended up liking it and have stayed for over 3 years now. But, I digress.

I mention the above, because I have the capability now to see things from both perspectives.

In reality, training is NOT the responsibility of the company, it only trains you to bare minimum out of necessity, not because IT MUST BY LAW. (yes, I know, there are exceptions).

Training is and will always remain the responsibility of the individual. How one affords to do it is irrelevant to the company. They owe their allegence to the shareholders and the people who have invested money into this venture. By training you, they are incurring cost that MAY or MAY NOT see a return on investment.

Think of it this way. Say you take $100.00 hard earned bucks and buy 10 shares in AT&T. You are hoping for a return on investment (dividend) and an increase in share price but that may or may not happen. So, lets say the share price consistently falls. How much are you going to keep investing? Companies think the same way. Train them today, gone tomorrow for better bucks to someone else. Lost time, money and productivity. Why keep doing something that is not working? And that is why in other threads you will see me say training must be taken out of the hands of each company and into a central body where everyone is trained to set and known standards.

Now, I am aware of your belief in unions and the belief that the company should hold full responsibility for the individual. For safety and safe work practices the individual must be trained. Basic how too's of locating are also their responsibility. But, the individual has numerous responsibilities, to show up with the necessary notepads, binder, etc. ready to learn, with a positive attitude, be organized, ask questions and take stuff home at night to study and prepare for tests. In over 40 years of working and a great many of those years in instructional process, I can tell you from experience few are. The exception, people who have taken responsibility for their own learning.

Now, please do not jump on me for taking the company management line as I am simply a locator like yourself. I have been offered several promotions and have turned EACH one down.

Let me give you another example. Where I work, we have tailgate meetings once a month. I have every months copy of the notes for over three years. I keep them in my learning journal. And, I learn a great deal from them.

I also take copious notes, keep them organized and indexed in a binder and on a computer for every utility I locate (7 utilities) Any new tip, idea, thing I try that works goes in there. Come time each year for a raise, I go in to my manager and I show him what I have learned in the year.

Guess what? I am amongst the highest paid locators in my company. Because I take responsibility for my own learning.

Three years ago, I too started at $10.00 no benefits, nothing. Today, three years later I am almost double that. Some would be pi**ed to learn I got $2.00 hr increase when they got .50 cents hr. They may believe I am the bosses pet, I can assure you, I am FAR from that.

Because I make him take responsibility for management issues that are his responsibility and sometimes I am sure he gets a little heated.

Taking responsibility for your own learning is not just about taking courses. It is also about keeping organized notes and thoughts on paper, asking questions and writing down the answers so I do not have to ask the same question over and over again. And, I review my journal from time to time to refresh my learning.

I can tell you that NO ONE of the 200 plus employees I work with does this. And many come to me for answers. I help them, but I also believe they are lazy bas***ds for not taking their own learning seriously.

This is a new occupation to the nube you spoke of. Have him set up an organized journal, with dividers for each utility and take all the note they can. Have them ask tons of questions. To be taken as a person of interest one must be interested!

I have tried this with many many nubes, guess what, its too much work. Well tough shit, who said life was easy?

Anyway, sorry if I pi**ed in your cereal, but people MUST take responsibility for themselves first and foremost and not whine to the company that the Co. has to do this or that for me. That's not their job. It's each of our responsibilities. Many of us who are long term locators are here because we have taken the time to learn, are here to do a good job and really get an intrinsic reward from doing a good job.

In my younger years, I took part time jobs or worked overtime to get the money to pay for course work. In Canada one can also apply for student loans, grants or burseries. This past winter, I took time off work and took some of the money I set aside and took the course because of my belief there has to be better training out there somewhere.

But how about asking some senior members to get a group together over a pizza and talk about one particular aspect of a utility.This is what my mentor (also my former immediate supervisor) used to do. Every Tuesday at the golden arches, 10 of us would get together and he would discuss problem areas he saw, or, discuss with nubes how to hook up or use cheater clips in new ways. That was not however a company sanctioned initiative. It flowed from him directly because he cared. Best damned boss I have ever had!

[UULC]

Underground Quester, I like your thinking. You say it so right. Take ownership of your own job and work. I was a sup and a locator who took ownership would get more then the one who was just there for a check. But I see you and I are on the same page.

[Locatingart]

underground quester: First I agree with what you are saying. If someone come to me and says there dont tneed anymore training in what there do in live I say to them. Look again!! We could never know enough. But we also must have balance. Thiese Guys and Gals working these long hot summer days locating mile long locates are being walk on by these creedy sub-contractor who dont care about anyone but the upper crust. Good training will never see the light of Day. We will always have this Walmart of training. Get them out the door and over feed them with tickets and firer them for the damages and hirer some more.

[underground quester]

underground quester: First I agree with what you are saying. If someone come to me and says there dont tneed anymore training in what there do in live I say to them. Look again!! We could never know enough. But we also must have balance. Thiese Guys and Gals working these long hot summer days locating mile long locates are being walk on by these creedy sub-contractor who dont care about anyone but the upper crust. Good training will never see the light of Day. We will always have this Walmart of training. Get them out the door and over feed them with tickets and firer them for the damages and hirer some more.

You are right, good training may not see light of day with many firms and that is why I am saying take it out of their hands. Have a recognized central body that trains to known standards and with qualifications will come better pay. Simply because, companies who pay the best will get the best and the rest will struggle. More pressure on the firms (ie:SM&P/CLS etc.) from 1 call and perhaps contractors will result in better wages because the contractors will be able to see the difference and know what is driving that difference. As in anything in life, that action (better training) will drive a necessary change in the overall life quality of all locators as a whole. But, the individuals must have the qualifications to drive the change.

Maintaining the paradigm will change nothing. There has to be a paradigm shift somewhere. Training is as good a place as any to start a change.

Will this change happen in the short term. NOT a hope in hell.
This is a long term venture. So, get your spurs on and saddle up, its a long ride.

Wow, just a thought, who the heck died and made me king. I will shut up on this issue now! I may or may not be right but these are just my views.

[Locatingart]

So should we get are State Goverments involved?

[underground quester]

So should we get are State Goverments involved?

I think it would be better to get all stakeholders (anyone who has an interest in how, when, why, where, locates are done). Along with trade associations and perhaps some government body as an observer.

That way, you have input from all sides and can see issues brought forward by someone that you may not have thought about.

Of course, the more people involved... unfortunately (sometimes) you start out designing a horse and end up with a jackass (oops, did I really say that in my out loud voice).

[AULupstate]

Here is an industry that for the most part in many states is heavily regulated and for the most part you must be certified to work. SECURITY!

40 hour course to get your license, 16 hour yearly in service (company paid)

48 hour course for armed, in service requalification (individual paid)

The first one doesn't pay worth a tinkers damn, the second one pays (usually) better.

My point is if you want to make money and make better money do what YOU can to better yourself. No one will do it for you.

[RoadMap]

Simply because, companies who pay the best will get the best and the rest will struggle. More pressure on the firms (ie:SM&P/CLS etc.) from 1 call and perhaps contractors will result in better wages because the contractors will be able to see the difference and know what is driving that difference. As in anything in life, that action (better training) will drive a necessary change in the overall life quality of all locators as a whole. But, the individuals must have the qualifications to drive the change.

Except your logic is a little skewed. The utilities and the contractors do not care who does their locates. They just want them done on time. If they are wrong then they get paid 100% of the bill. If they are right and the contractor is at fault they might get 50% of the full bill. ATT is hurting like everyone else and when the gas prices start to hurt them they will cut back. And the first things to get cut are the VENDORS, which is us the locators. To beat down our locate price even more. Certification means nothing to Utilities except for their Union workers.

[underground quester]

Except your logic is a little skewed. The utilities and the contractors do not care who does their locates. They just want them done on time. If they are wrong then they get paid 100% of the bill. If they are right and the contractor is at fault they might get 50% of the full bill. ATT is hurting like everyone else and when the gas prices start to hurt them they will cut back. And the first things to get cut are the VENDORS, which is us the locators. To beat down our locate price even more. Certification means nothing to Utilities except for their Union workers.[/QUOTE]


Hey there Roadmap:

The util & Contractors do not care who does their locates.

That the utilities do not care I believe is a misconception. They care a great deal because there are a great many associated costs that are not covered in a hit. How for example do you fix a price on a P.O.'s customer that has hd it with ATT down phone/internet and makes a change? A lot of the paperwork, ATT peoples time etc may not be put in the bill.
Companies care but with the contractual obligations the locating firm must pay for errors (and at times take b.s. hits) because the locating firm did not meet contractual obligations. Think about taking your car to a mechanic to have motor work done. It comes back and the front quarter panel is damaged. You rightfully would expect the garage to pay for the repairs. Same logic applys to the util. co.

Contractors for the most part I believe care as well, they lose production time and may still have wage obligations, etc. that may or may not be paid back to them. Additionally, some I deal with have many many balls in the air and along comes a hit due to mismarking. His view, "christ can't anyone do anything right?" Then the first locator that comes along gets a pile of S**T dumped on him.
Generally, people who show some frustration i am okay with...because it usually means they care. Also, if one of their workers gets hurt there are tons of financial & paper obligations. More crap. More frustration.

"And first thing to be cut are the vendors"

I have worked on or been part of changing/cutting many budgets in my time including running my own business for 8 years. In this case I cannot speak to how ATT operates because I do not know. However, many things are often cut internally before vendors see cuts. Usually, training, travel, graft (hats, pens, that kind of giveaway). Sometimes the "pain" is spread many directions and the vendor may or may not be cut. No company is silly enough to believe they can keep cutting forever and get contractors who can realistically do the job and still make a profit. Locating companies cost HUGE bucks to set up vehicles, equipment, staffing, supplies (paint, batteries, etc). No one is seriously going to invest any amount of money if they cannot see a return on investment. That return may be realized or it may not. If not, they close the doors, but someone has lost TONS of money.

I still believe adequate training will go a long ways toward resolving many issues and when things get better everyone who needs to will sit up and take notice. I do not say that certification of locators is a panacea that will cure all evils. It will not and I hope I have not said that anywhere. But, it MAY bring better people, better results, better wages (eventually) because noone is going to get certified and work for $10.00.

Things generally change is small increments, not in huge sweeping waves. People often cannot adjust well to sweeping change.