Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 32
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Kansas City Explosion

  1. #16
    Senior Member Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,055
    Years of Experience
    30
    Rep Power
    60

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    It's a shame someone died in this situation, it really is man. I can't understand why they wouldn't evacuate the area IMMEDIATELY! I have drilled over many gas lines, over 100 I would guess - without hitting one, and that is one thing we never come close to without eyes on it. If we can't find it we make a call... but to physically SEE it and still have a disaster like this happen? Should NEVER happen!! Geez, someone lost their life. Life is to precious and insurance won't cover that.

  2. #17
    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,525
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    113

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    It's a shame someone died in this situation, it really is man. I can't understand why they wouldn't evacuate the area IMMEDIATELY! I have drilled over many gas lines, over 100 I would guess - without hitting one, and that is one thing we never come close to without eyes on it. If we can't find it we make a call... but to physically SEE it and still have a disaster like this happen? Should NEVER happen!! Geez, someone lost their life. Life is to precious and insurance won't cover that.
    If this happened becasue the excavator failed to test pit it is becasue that would take time and time is money.

    I worked on a project years ago where the bore crews never test pitted becasue they were ordered not to. Someone at corporate office crunched the numbers and they said it would be cheaper to pay for repairs than to test pit. This was a huge project in a large neighborhood, easily a thousand houses. They hit every utility in their, at fault for them as they were all correctly marked, with not less than one utility a week. The unmarked electric was a danger mostly to the bore crews. The neighborhood was all gas and they put at risk the lives of all the families living there.

    These things happen becasue the state ignores it. The state may give fines but it is the stockholders money, not the guy who ordered it. The bore company gets sued but again the stockholders and insurance companies money, not the guy who ordered it.

    If Kansas City was becasue of boring without test pitting and the state vigorously prosecuted a negligent homicide (or by depraved indifference homicide)
    , no plea bargain, against the people who ordered it then you would see a change.

  3. #18
    Mke
    Mke is offline
    Senior Member Mke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Republic of Washington
    Posts
    1,542
    Years of Experience
    16
    Rep Power
    78

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    PL, Criminal charges sound great, but to be realistic... it won't happen. The only time criminal charges will pend is if it was an egregious failure one one individuals part. In this situation you won't have that. You will have some blame on multiple different people. The contractor will state that he hit the line, and called 911 like he was supposed to do and the gas company was on site in plenty of time to mitigate any damages. Which is accurate. The gas company will point the finger right back at him stating that if they didn't hit the line the building wouldn't of blown up. The utilities commission will fine them but as for criminal charges.... I believe the term is beyond a reasonable doubt, and in these circumstances you just can't lay sole blame on any single person. Besides all that, You know well enough that us locators are at the bottom of the totem pole. When blame gets shoveled around we tend to get covered.

    I would rather try to get some industry standards in place so when mistakes like this happen we can narrow the fault down better. We have it in our state laws that the contractor has to "Hand Excavate" for all marked utilities. This is attempted by most contractors to fulfill the letter of the law. The excavator how ever doesn't take any of this information to heart.

    At one of our marine terminals, the electric company was just installing a new primary to a loading crane. I marked everything weeks before (when it was dry) and all the paint was still visible (all of it was on asphalt). I walked the crew through the job site. I emphasized the importance of not hitting the only electrical cable and communication line in the area. They assured me that they were going to work very cautiously and would pot hole every utility. I gave them my number and said if there was any questions just to give me a call. I Stopped by when they were potholing utilities and made sure they were ok with all the paint and utilities. They re-assured me that they were fine.

    A couple days later I get a call from the foreman stating that my paint was wrong and they were about to pull the reamer back through the bore hole.

    So I drop everything and head out to the site. I am greeted with an irate foreman. He starts laying into me about my marks being wrong. He shows me the recieving pit and there is a 4" conduit directly under the 2" comm conduit. He tells me that there is no paint on it. I reaffirm that the comm conduit has paint on it and with that being said, he needed to dig cautiously anyways. He didn't like that answer. I told him that the 4" conduit is part of the electrical duct run that runs with the comm line. He points to my duct marks which are about 18" off of the visible conduit. I then had to go down the finer art of electrical duct installation and how locating equipment only locates the conduits that are loaded. He then responds with...."There is more then one electrical conduit?"

    I then started asking about his potholing information. He didn't write anything down. No depths, no conduit count, no nothing. I re connected to the primary to show him that my marks were right on the conductor. I then started to bust his balls about what is potholing good for if you are not keeping track of the information you find, or don't realize what you have to look for. He backed away from my paint being wrong. I asked him before I left if they were ok with all the marks and again he said he was ok.

    Skip a week later. I was on vacation. I get a call from one of our electrical engineers stating this same crew about 100' from where that previous situation happen hit the main primary feeding the terminal. The same line that was questioned previously. I found out that the hit the line pulling the new 8" sleeve back through the bore hole. that was a 15kv feeder for the marine terminal. Shut down dock offices, a car loading facility, and two bulk loading facilities. Those guys are extremely lucky that no one got killed. The first thing that crew said..... It wasn't marked correctly. The engineer told them to clean off the asphalt from all the normal dirt and stuff near the recieving pit. Low and behold.... paint magically appeared on the asphalt directly above where the damage took place.

    I describe this situation to highlight the fact that potholing doesn't do anything if the crew doesn't care about it. Secondly, if the engineer didn't have them clean the asphalt off, they would of kept blaming me. Those are the reasons why I don't think there should be criminal charges filed untill there can be some industry wide changes in proceedures.

    mke

  4. #19
    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,525
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    113

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mke View Post
    PL, Criminal charges sound great, but to be realistic... it won't happen. The only time criminal charges will pend is if it was an egregious failure one one individuals part. In this situation you won't have that.
    <SNIP>

    mke
    I have to disargee with you becasue it is not an issue of an "egregious error'.

    If the dig laws in an area require test pitting and the order to violate the law / regulation is given it is not an error, it is an intentional violation. The intentional violation of a safety law where a death occurs is under current laws grounds for criminal charges like negligent homicide or murder.

    The other term that applies here is "depraved indifference" one definition of which is "To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendantís conduct, not the injuries actually resulting. " ""to bring defendantís conduct within the murder statute, the People were required to establish also that defendantís act was imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death to others and that it was committed under circumstances which evidenced a wanton indifference to human life or a depravity of mind. . . . . The crime differs from intentional murder in that it results not from a specific, conscious intent to cause death, but from an indifference to or disregard of the risks attending defendantís conduct." "



    In our case it strongly applies when safety of the a person injured or killed is in the hands of the one who caused their death. For example a babysitter who watches a child choke to death and does not try to help. A utility locator marking electric or gas who knowingly does not mark the utility, we call it blowing off the ticket.

    The current laws apply to this just it these deaths seldom come to the attention of the prosecutor's office. Rumor has it that years ago one locator in Texas was put into prison for just these reasons.

  5. #20
    Mke
    Mke is offline
    Senior Member Mke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Republic of Washington
    Posts
    1,542
    Years of Experience
    16
    Rep Power
    78

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    Hey PL,

    I see where you are going with this, but I think you are over reaching with the legal interpretation. So I just roughly glanced at the dig laws for MO. and like all dig laws it is filled with tons of grey areas. It doesn't call out specifically one way or another to verify the location (vertical and horizontal). It actually lists "electronic locating devices" as one means of verifying the location of a utility. That only reaffirms my original point that the "Depraved Indifference" that you claim exists in this situation is not quite there.

    Lets for arguments sake, lets say that there was a specific call out to pot hole the utility before directional drilling accross utilities in the state law. In this situation, The contractor hit the line in question, and called 911 to let the authorities know. That act in itself shows that there is no wanton disreguard for human life.

    The horrible thing about this situation is that the responsibility of the victims death rests on the situation itself, not any single person. And because of this, criminal charges won't work. There will definately be civil charges coming, but you still can't work around the "reasonable doubt" guidelines the criminal court needs.

    Your example of the babysitter bares no resemblence of this situation. As of right now, they state that the locator marked the line that was damaged. The Evil contractor who hit said line (with what information i have read) called 911 soon after the damage and roughly an hour before the building went kablooey.

    Before throwing the heavy hand of the law at the locating industry, lets try to get some standards, then if we fail to meet those standards the criminal laws can be inforced appropriately. Untill then.

    mke

  6. #21
    Senior Member yahoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,118
    Years of Experience
    15
    Rep Power
    177

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    the sad fact is ...........nothing will change....things will go on as usual ...next month or maybe the next we will be talking about the next explosion that may or may not kill people >>>> any change that is necessary to help, costs to much money and therefore all will stay the same as it is....other than those affected does anyone really care ....no !
    wise men talk because they have something to say and fools because they have to say something....plato

  7. #22
    Senior Member Wingfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    4,615
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    199

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion




    -------------------------------------------------------------------

  8. #23
    Senior Member Wingfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    4,615
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    199

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion




    -------------------------------------------------------------------

  9. #24
    Senior Member Wingfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    4,615
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    199

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion




    This photo hit me like a sledge hammer when I saw it for the first time. I've known the victims in the photo wearing the yellow/lime P.P.E.s for many years. Mike Tanner is a field supervisor for Heartland Midwest and is the one lying on his back. Mike was standing with his back to the restaurant when it blew. He was watching the gas company workers dig a pit around the gas main. Mike sustained a fireball blast loaded with shards of glass and debris strong enough to rip off his pants. I was told Mike encountered burns on 75% of his body. Last week Tuesday the skin grafts on his hands finally took affect. His skin grafts on his legs still have not taken affect.

    Mike is a young family-man who is well-known, respected and well-liked by just about everybody in our industry. Mike is a super nice guy who is a serious dirt track racer. This is his dirt car:


    Mike is a past United States Modified Touring Series class points champion at his home track here in Kansas City.


    Mike is a perennial points leader in the series and his competition must drive around him to be able to gain the checkered flag on any given race night. It is interesting that two nights a week during race season Mike is having fun rubbing fenders at over a hundred miles an hour steering a gasoline bomb on wheels and then gets sucker-punched with fire at work.


    Mike's racing buddies held a charity for him this past weekend to help with family finances while Mike recuperates from his serious burn injuries. I hope everyone there had fun and Mike's family got the monies needed. Luv Ya Mike and God's speed for a rapid recovery!

    -------------------------------------------------------------

  10. #25
    Senior Member Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,055
    Years of Experience
    30
    Rep Power
    60

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion



    KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) Six employees of JJ's Restaurant filed the first lawsuit Friday afternoon over the deadly Feb. 19 explosion that ripped through the popular Plaza area establishments.

    The employees sued Missouri Gas Energy, Heartland Midwest, Time Warner Cable, Missouri One Call System and USIC Locating Services, which marks utility lines.
    First lawsuit filed by JJ's employees after deadly explosion - KCTV5

    The Lawsuit

  11. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    around the corner
    Posts
    588
    Years of Experience
    21
    Rep Power
    34

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    What does usic have to do with this according to wing mge locates this area not usic?

  12. #27
    Member Millertime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    56
    Years of Experience
    9
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    They are suing everyone. Why the hell sue the one call center

  13. #28
    Senior Member Wingfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    4,615
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    199

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    Quote Originally Posted by orangeboots View Post
    What does usic have to do with this according to wing mge locates this area not usic?
    Well fellas - Ol' Wingfoot was in error when he posted the gas company (MGE) performed their own locates at JJs. Unbeknownst to Wingfoot, the area that MGE located themselves for the past 20+ years was re-negotiated with USIC 6 weeks before the JJ's gas explosion! USIC performed the gas locates at JJs. The tolerance zone for locate marks in Missouri is 24". The 2" plastic gas main in question was accurately marked (officially marked within 6") and potholed exposing the plastic gas main at 24" deep to the top of the main. The Heartland Midwest bore machine locator was under the false impression the bore sonde was 37" deep when in actuality the bore head was 25" deep when he crossed the potholed gas main. I have spoken recently to bore machine locators and the problem of bogus sonde depths is very common. The bore heads being about 12" shallower than the depth reading on the electronic drill head locators is the norm.


    Wingfoot travels the country on limited weekends to mount Goodyear race tires on team supplied wheels at NASCAR tracks. Each race has 8 or 9 wheel balance machines that are each calibrated in the morning when the balancing machines are cold and then again at noonish when the balancing machines are hot to assure "nutz on" accurate balancing throughout the day. I am sure there is a procedure to calibrate sonde depth before each drill usage. I have never been in front of a bore machine, but if bore head calibration it is a big pain, I can see that procedure being eliminated by many before drilling.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Wingfoot; April 3rd, 2013 at 07:14 AM.

  14. #29
    Mke
    Mke is offline
    Senior Member Mke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Republic of Washington
    Posts
    1,542
    Years of Experience
    16
    Rep Power
    78

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    The article is dated back in 03, but it states a little something about this calibration of the reciever for the sonde.

    Drill Master - HDD Locating -- Knowing the Basics

    mke
    Wingfoot likes this.

  15. #30
    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,525
    Years of Experience
    20
    Rep Power
    113

    Default Re: Kansas City Explosion

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime View Post
    They are suing everyone. Why the hell sue the one call center
    The attornies file the lawsuits and they do not know who the responsable parties are. There being a time limit to file suit for damages they file against every name they find connected to the incident.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
A 'Rook Media' Website