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Thread: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

  1. #31
    Senior Member TBONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifinditunderground View Post
    Nothing will ever kill the 810. It's been a proven tool for nearly 25 years. Not gonna happen.
    Often copied never duplicated.

  2. #32
    Senior Member FailedSafetyAudit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Yup just be sure to get a model 4490 4" inductive clamp with that 810dx transmitter. Supposedly, that model clamp works better with the 810dx transmitter than the previous model 4" clamp designed for use with the classic 810 transmitteer which was model 4820. You can see this distinguishment in the .pdf file information sheets on the classic 810 and 810dx.

    As for the vivax transmitter pushing the classic 810's 83 khz frequency, I've heard that you can special order the 5 watt version of the vivax transmitter as a "version 5" or something which includes the 83khz as a general induction frequency. However it will still only put out 1 watt of power so you are better off just using the 810dx transmitter supplied with the 810 classic receiver because it's cheaper if you want to buy that set, it's part number P/N 11700.

    LOL, as for the metrotech 9800 series, I cut my teeth on those units and learned how to locate with them. They were my first piece of equipment ever used. And let me tell you, I've used about 80% of all the instruments out there, and I will say with absolute overwhelming certainty the 9800 series is the 2nd worst locator I've ever used. The fcking thing was a joke. Wouldn't carry a tone very far, the transmitter would chew threw batteries very quickly, the transmitter would beep erracticly seemingly at random with no effect on the signal, the transmitter would sometimes need to be literally banged around to turn on correctly, the radio passive on the receiver literally did nothing useful whatsoever, the dot matrix display would fade to clear if it got wet, horrible inductive coils, The list just goes on, truely a horrible piece of equipment. In fact I talked to someone who used to be a metrotech distributor who actually changed companies to distribute for once the 9800 was revealed to be the colossal dissapointment that it was. It was basically the windows vista of locating units, not only because it sucked so bad on it's own, but it's predecessor was an absolute legend of the business, like windows xp was.

    You might ask me what I think the worst is, after that explanation. HAha. Ok, I'll tell you. The rycom. That's all I will comment about that piece of SH!T.

    Yes the rd5000 comes with a transmitter that can go up to 1 watt of power, just like the 810dx.
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    The performance of the clamp is very dependant upon the core that is used for inducing the signal. The core of the clamp is made from layers of laminated materials and it is the material and the thickness that dictates the performance. Some locator companies use steel for there core and others use a metal known as mu metal. Mu metal is much better than steel because you do not get so much loss from the material which leads to more signal being induced onto the cable or pipe. The same goes for the thickness of the laminates, the thinner the laminate , the better the induction.
    A combination of material and thickness will affect the cost of manufacture. Before purchasing a clamp it would be useful to ask what material the core is made from and the thickness of the laminates. Radiodetection use Mu metal and very thin laminates for their cores and I have tried other manufacturers clamps and found that they do not induce so much signal onto the line.

  4. #34
    Senior Member FailedSafetyAudit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    So metrotech doesn't use the "mu metal" in thier inductive clamps like radiodetection does?

    Mu-metal is a nickel-iron alloy (approximately 75% nickel, 15% iron, plus copper and molybdenum) that has very high magnetic permeability. The high permeability makes mu-metal very effective at screening static or low-frequency magnetic fields, which cannot be attenuated by other methods. The name came from the Greek letter mu (μ) which represents permeability. A number of different proprietary formulations of the alloy are sold under trade names such as Mumetal, MuMetal, and MuShield; this article will cover their common features.

    Mu-metal can have relative permeabilities of 80,000–100,000 compared to several thousand for ordinary steel. In addition it has low coercivity and magnetostriction resulting in low hysteresis loss. Other high permeability alloys such as permalloy have similar magnetic properties; mu-metal's advantage is that it is more ductile and workable.[1]

    Mu-metal objects require heat treatment after they are in final form — annealing in a magnetic field in hydrogen atmosphere, which reportedly increases the magnetic permeability about 40 times. The annealing alters the material's crystal structure, aligning the grains and removing some impurities, especially carbon, which obstruct the free motion of the magnetic domain boundaries. Bending or mechanical shock after annealing may disrupt the material's grain alignment, leading to a drop in the permeability of the affected areas, which can be restored by repeating the hydrogen annealing step.
    Contents

    1 Magnetic shielding
    2 History
    3 Uses and properties
    4 References
    5 External links

    Magnetic shielding

    The high permeability of mu-metal provides a low reluctance path for magnetic flux, leading to its major use, in magnetic shields against static or slowly varying magnetic fields. Magnetic shielding made with high permeability alloys like mu-metal works not by blocking magnetic fields but by shunting them—providing a path for the magnetic field lines around the shielded area. So the best shape for shields is a closed container surrounding the shielded space. The effectiveness of mu-metal shielding decreases with the alloy's permeability, which drops off at both low field strengths and, due to saturation, at high field strengths. So mu-metal shields are often made of several enclosures one inside the other, each of which successively reduces the field inside it. RF magnetic fields above about 100 kHz can be shielded by Faraday shields, ordinary conductive metal sheets or screens which are used to shield against electric fields.[2]
    History

    Mu-metal was developed by scientists named Smith and Garnett and patented in 1923 for inductive loading of submarine telegraph cables by The Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Co. Ltd. (now Telcon Metals Ltd.), a British firm which built the Atlantic undersea telegraph cables.[3][4] The conductive seawater surrounding an undersea cable added a great deal of capacitance to the cable, limiting the bandwidth and slowing signaling speed to 10–12 words per minute. The bandwidth could be increased by adding inductance to compensate. This was first done by wrapping the conductors with a helical wrapping of metal tape or wire of high magnetic permeability, which confined the magnetic field. Mu-metal was invented by adding copper to the previous high permeability alloy Permalloy to improve ductility. 50 miles of fine mu-metal wire was needed for each mile of cable, creating a great demand for the alloy. The first year of production Telcon was making 30 tons per week. In the 1930s this use for mu-metal declined, but by World War II many other uses were found in the electronics industry (particularly shielding for transformers and cathode ray tubes) as well as the fuzes inside magnetic mines.
    Uses and properties

    Mu-metal is used to shield equipment from magnetic fields. For example:

    Electric power transformers, which are built with mu-metal shells to prevent them from affecting nearby circuitry
    Hard Drives, which have mu-metal backings to the magnets found in the drive to keep the magnetic field away from the disk.
    Cathode-ray tubes used in analogue oscilloscopes
    Magnetic phonograph cartridges, which have a mu-metal case to reduce interference when LPs are played back
    Magnetic resonance imaging equipment
    The magnetometers used in magnetoencephalography and magnetocardiography
    Photomultiplier tubes
    Vacuum chambers for experiments with low-energy electrons, for example photoelectron spectroscopy
    Superconducting circuits and especially Josephson junction circuits

    Other materials with similar magnetic properties include supermalloy, supermumetal, nilomag, sanbold, Molybdenum permalloy, Sendust, M-1040, Hipernom, HyMu-80 and Amumetal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_metal
    Last edited by FailedSafetyAudit; September 10th, 2011 at 08:37 AM.
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    QUESTION everything !!!
    Find the TRUTH for yourself !!!
    Sound a bit paranoid ???
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    I have to congratulate you on your excellent post and although not sure what material Metrotech use in the production of their clamps, it would be interesting if anybody out there knows...

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Haha thanks man, most of it was copy and pasted from wikipedia, LOL!
    TRUST no one !!!
    QUESTION everything !!!
    Find the TRUTH for yourself !!!
    Sound a bit paranoid ???
    That's what this business is. - Don Lyng

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    Conservative Meanie ifinditunderground's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    I just got a 5000 in today. will be getting it into the field ASAP, and will contribute my $0.02 here as well. I have been using the new 810's for a few months now, and I love them. VM did a great job improving an already terrific tool. it will be difficult for the 5000 to impress me, but I will be open minded about it.
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness."
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Man, you guys know entirely way too much about locating devices. You must just sit around and read the whole manuals everyday. Just give me some equipment and let me go locate with it. Dam, reading all that shit made my head hurt.




    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Locator View Post
    The performance of the clamp is very dependant upon the core that is used for inducing the signal. The core of the clamp is made from layers of laminated materials and it is the material and the thickness that dictates the performance. Some locator companies use steel for there core and others use a metal known as mu metal. Mu metal is much better than steel because you do not get so much loss from the material which leads to more signal being induced onto the cable or pipe. The same goes for the thickness of the laminates, the thinner the laminate , the better the induction.
    A combination of material and thickness will affect the cost of manufacture. Before purchasing a clamp it would be useful to ask what material the core is made from and the thickness of the laminates. Radiodetection use Mu metal and very thin laminates for their cores and I have tried other manufacturers clamps and found that they do not induce so much signal onto the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by FailedSafetyAudit View Post
    So metrotech doesn't use the "mu metal" in thier inductive clamps like radiodetection does?

    Mu-metal is a nickel-iron alloy (approximately 75% nickel, 15% iron, plus copper and molybdenum) that has very high magnetic permeability. The high permeability makes mu-metal very effective at screening static or low-frequency magnetic fields, which cannot be attenuated by other methods. The name came from the Greek letter mu (μ) which represents permeability. A number of different proprietary formulations of the alloy are sold under trade names such as Mumetal, MuMetal, and MuShield; this article will cover their common features.

    Mu-metal can have relative permeabilities of 80,000–100,000 compared to several thousand for ordinary steel. In addition it has low coercivity and magnetostriction resulting in low hysteresis loss. Other high permeability alloys such as permalloy have similar magnetic properties; mu-metal's advantage is that it is more ductile and workable.[1]

    Mu-metal objects require heat treatment after they are in final form — annealing in a magnetic field in hydrogen atmosphere, which reportedly increases the magnetic permeability about 40 times. The annealing alters the material's crystal structure, aligning the grains and removing some impurities, especially carbon, which obstruct the free motion of the magnetic domain boundaries. Bending or mechanical shock after annealing may disrupt the material's grain alignment, leading to a drop in the permeability of the affected areas, which can be restored by repeating the hydrogen annealing step.
    Contents

    1 Magnetic shielding
    2 History
    3 Uses and properties
    4 References
    5 External links

    Magnetic shielding

    The high permeability of mu-metal provides a low reluctance path for magnetic flux, leading to its major use, in magnetic shields against static or slowly varying magnetic fields. Magnetic shielding made with high permeability alloys like mu-metal works not by blocking magnetic fields but by shunting them—providing a path for the magnetic field lines around the shielded area. So the best shape for shields is a closed container surrounding the shielded space. The effectiveness of mu-metal shielding decreases with the alloy's permeability, which drops off at both low field strengths and, due to saturation, at high field strengths. So mu-metal shields are often made of several enclosures one inside the other, each of which successively reduces the field inside it. RF magnetic fields above about 100 kHz can be shielded by Faraday shields, ordinary conductive metal sheets or screens which are used to shield against electric fields.[2]
    History

    Mu-metal was developed by scientists named Smith and Garnett and patented in 1923 for inductive loading of submarine telegraph cables by The Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Co. Ltd. (now Telcon Metals Ltd.), a British firm which built the Atlantic undersea telegraph cables.[3][4] The conductive seawater surrounding an undersea cable added a great deal of capacitance to the cable, limiting the bandwidth and slowing signaling speed to 10–12 words per minute. The bandwidth could be increased by adding inductance to compensate. This was first done by wrapping the conductors with a helical wrapping of metal tape or wire of high magnetic permeability, which confined the magnetic field. Mu-metal was invented by adding copper to the previous high permeability alloy Permalloy to improve ductility. 50 miles of fine mu-metal wire was needed for each mile of cable, creating a great demand for the alloy. The first year of production Telcon was making 30 tons per week. In the 1930s this use for mu-metal declined, but by World War II many other uses were found in the electronics industry (particularly shielding for transformers and cathode ray tubes) as well as the fuzes inside magnetic mines.
    Uses and properties

    Mu-metal is used to shield equipment from magnetic fields. For example:

    Electric power transformers, which are built with mu-metal shells to prevent them from affecting nearby circuitry
    Hard Drives, which have mu-metal backings to the magnets found in the drive to keep the magnetic field away from the disk.
    Cathode-ray tubes used in analogue oscilloscopes
    Magnetic phonograph cartridges, which have a mu-metal case to reduce interference when LPs are played back
    Magnetic resonance imaging equipment
    The magnetometers used in magnetoencephalography and magnetocardiography
    Photomultiplier tubes
    Vacuum chambers for experiments with low-energy electrons, for example photoelectron spectroscopy
    Superconducting circuits and especially Josephson junction circuits

    Other materials with similar magnetic properties include supermalloy, supermumetal, nilomag, sanbold, Molybdenum permalloy, Sendust, M-1040, Hipernom, HyMu-80 and Amumetal.

    Mu-metal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Conservative Meanie ifinditunderground's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by superman View Post
    Man, you guys know entirely way too much about locating devices. You must just sit around and read the whole manuals everyday. Just give me some equipment and let me go locate with it. Dam, reading all that shit made my head hurt.
    Knowledge is power my friend.
    EricB likes this.
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    I agree that knowledge is power. I also think experience is power.

    Knowledge of a clamp having 75% nickel, 15% iron, plus copper and molybdenum does not give me any power at all nor does it help me locate better. Who gives a she I it? If it makes you feel better to know all that crap, then have at it.

  11. #41
    Mke
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by superman View Post
    I agree that knowledge is power. I also think experience is power.
    Experience means nothing without the knowlege on how to capitalize on the experience.

    I got a locator who has 12 years of experience in locating. Even went to the regional and the international rodeo. The phrase I have to reiterate to him the most often is "Trust your equipment" You would think the experience would transfer over. It doesn't.

    No offense to failedsafetyaudit, but most people can find articles that can pertain to any given topic, they may not know exactly how that article pertains to the topic. Mu metal is supposed to be worlds better then the Metrotech clamp, however there is several other variables involved with the ability of a clamp to induce the frequency to the target conductor. When it comes down to it, it is a very slight difference and the typical user will probably never ever notice.

    Its kinda like having an 20" Plasma with 1080p resolution. It looks great....but you are not going to notice the difference between the 720 and the 1080 on a 20" screen. Is there a difference? Yes, but its all fuzzy when your watching porn anyways.

    mke
    EricB and enmt like this.

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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    I understand what your saying. Does that 12 year locator have experience with just one utility or multiple? I believe you learn to trust your equipment real quick when your running 4-6 way locates. Some, never get it though.

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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mke View Post
    Experience means nothing without the knowlege on how to capitalize on the experience.

    Its kinda like having an 20" Plasma with 1080p resolution. It looks great....but you are not going to notice the difference between the 720 and the 1080 on a 20" screen. Is there a difference? Yes, but its all fuzzy when your watching porn anyways.

    mke
    This sounds like the voice of Experience!

  14. #44
    Conservative Meanie ifinditunderground's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mke View Post
    Its kinda like having an 20" Plasma with 1080p resolution. It looks great....but you are not going to notice the difference between the 720 and the 1080 on a 20" screen. Is there a difference? Yes, but its all fuzzy when your watching porn anyways.

    mke
    Your porn is just fuzzy, mine is pixelated. It looks terrible on 1080P and 720... You are a lucky man MKE
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness."
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    Default Re: Anyone here ever used an RD5000? Radiodetection's metrotech 810 killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mke View Post
    Experience means nothing without the knowlege on how to capitalize on the experience.

    I got a locator who has 12 years of experience in locating. Even went to the regional and the international rodeo. The phrase I have to reiterate to him the most often is "Trust your equipment" You would think the experience would transfer over. It doesn't.

    No offense to failedsafetyaudit, but most people can find articles that can pertain to any given topic, they may not know exactly how that article pertains to the topic. Mu metal is supposed to be worlds better then the Metrotech clamp, however there is several other variables involved with the ability of a clamp to induce the frequency to the target conductor. When it comes down to it, it is a very slight difference and the typical user will probably never ever notice.

    Its kinda like having an 20" Plasma with 1080p resolution. It looks great....but you are not going to notice the difference between the 720 and the 1080 on a 20" screen. Is there a difference? Yes, but its all fuzzy when your watching porn anyways.

    mke
    agree with your opinion. "Experience means nothing without the knowlege on how to capitalize on the experience."

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