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Thread: Any other union locators out here?

  1. #31
    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mke View Post
    Ditto....

    The only think I'm hanging my hat on is that they are emphasising "union". Not to bash Union Locators.

    Either Way Cipher, if your a good locator, you tend to be an exception to the rule.

    I aslo have a beef with putting more importance on the Gas and Electric lines, then the others. I believe each of the utilities have their importance to life and limb. Yeah you might have to beat someone with a CATV main to wreak havoc on someone, but it can be done.

    I think people are co-relating things to fit arguments.... the main common thread is Locating, which means there is locators out there, some union, some non-union who are doing a $hitty job and still getting to do that crappy job each and everyday. "Why?" you might ask? Its because he's the lesser of two evils. On one hand you have a locator that is "f"ing up alot, and you know this, so you put him on things hopeing he's not going to mess up, and on the other hand you have a locator who gives a crap, and knows his stuff. Which one has a better chance replacing the boss?

    just a thought.

    mke
    I have been stressing gas and electric damage as a threat to human life and limb, and as such a great legal liability, and stand by my position.

    It is electric when cut that can maim or kill the excavator. Usually the electric just grounds out to the earth but not all the time. Even a damaged service can be dangerous well after the damage. A hot leg burns into the neutral sending current into the house and starting a fire.

    Gas usually just leaks out but it can ignite into either fire or explosion. It can seep through the earth into a structure which can blow up or burn down.

    The utilities are about equal when it comes of loss of service, they all share this regards damages. The loss of electric can shut down life support or heat. Shutting off the gas can shut off the heat. Where disabled or ill people are the loss of heat can be a real threat. The loss of phone service means the loss of 911 support in an emergency. With CATV now having voice over the internet phone service the loss of CATV can also mean the loss of 911 support.

    We cover many states and Canada here plus I think I saw some posts from the UK. So there are many jurisdictions with many different laws and many different utility providers. Still one very common clause the the service agreement between utility providers and their customers is "we do not guarantee continuity of service". This means they will not guarantee that their service will stay on and customers need to make their own provisions should a needed service fail for any reason. This limits the utility providers liability for outages even when their own in-house locators make an error.

    Utilities are very often sued by merchants for loss of business due to outages. We cover many areas but I believe, and is stress the word believe, that these suits seldom are won.

    Each utility sets it's priority regards damages to their lines but gas and electric have a level of liability well beyond the others. There are of course some exceptions like a 40" water main but I am sticking to the most common daily liabilities.

    To us locators, us good ones, all utilities are equally important. We do our best that none of them are damaged due to a miss-mark. But I will tell you something... when I was marking CATV only I felt a lot less pressure at the end of the day knowing that if I had made a mistake nobody could be killed.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by GODFATHER View Post
    Bingo! The upper management has lost focus on what exactly were out here to do. They preach protecting utilities and public safety but in the same sentence want you making them money. Im not saying we cant do both but the steps that have to be made to get the numbers everyone wants takes away from the quality work of old that we used to be able to provide! JMHO....
    Some of us are forgetting, companies are in business for a purpose. TO MAKE A PROFIT. As a technician our jobs is to protect the facilities. Everyone needs to remember their personal ethics and stick to them. Do the job right, respect the company property.
    Remember, we are paid from the profits that the company makes. Less damages more pay. Less vehicle crashes more pay. Less workers comp injuries MORE PAY.

    How much simpler can that be?
    Go ahead and beat me up for this, THIS IS HOW I FEEL and how I approach my job as a Damage Prevention Technician.
    GOD BLESS THE USA & the Damage Prevention Techs that are the heartbeat of the Utility industry.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]
    OPINIONS ARE LIKE A-HOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Locateforlife View Post
    Some of us are forgetting, companies are in business for a purpose. TO MAKE A PROFIT. As a technician our jobs is to protect the facilities. Everyone needs to remember their personal ethics and stick to them. Do the job right, respect the company property.
    Remember, we are paid from the profits that the company makes. Less damages more pay. Less vehicle crashes more pay. Less workers comp injuries MORE PAY.

    How much simpler can that be?
    Go ahead and beat me up for this, THIS IS HOW I FEEL and how I approach my job as a Damage Prevention Technician.
    I agree with you about us performing the work. I do my absolute best.

    But I slightly disagree with your statement "Less damages more pay. Less vehicle crashes more pay. Less workers comp injuries MORE PAY."

    I have to say Less damages should result in more pay. Less vehicle crashes should result in more pay. Less workers comp injuries should result in MORE PAY.

    In some firms doing everything right results in more pay.

    It is just that I have observed some firms where that does not occur. I have seen an instance or two where more profit from the locators just results in more money to spend. More money is very often spent on overpriced projects that do not result in more profits, often results in more losses. Which despite the locators doing all the things you mentioned resulted in pay and benefits cuts for them.

  4. #34
    Senior Member AULupstate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    I don't want to get in a pissing match with prolocator but his legal jargon and terminology are STILL WRONG.

    Contractual Obligation is NOT law, it is just a peice of paper. When the 'real law' gets involved is when said contractual obligations are ignored or violated. Then and ONLY then are there legal ramifications.

    It is a FACT that a 20 (give or take) year senior in the union gets a thousand times better 'representation' than a 5 (or less) year junior. Neither one has ANYTHING to do with what's right and wrong. Seniority gives you the benefits and being low man gives you the shaft. That is how Unions WORK. There rules and regulations have nothing to do with skill and job performance. Anyone who thinks they do needs to have their heads examined. Better yet, join the union. You will fit right in.

    My comments are based in actual experience with the IBEW on two seperate ocassions of being 'laid off' because a senior member of the union was getting shit canned from another division and needed MY JOB to finish out their retirement time. I would have had better success at my 'hearing' if a pile of dog shit was at the table next to me instead of the jerk off union rep. that decided to show up 20 minutes late with 'Sorry but this is only a formality, there's nothing the union can do'.

    Also don't get me wrong. There is no hate or animosity towards union locators. We all do a job that has serious consiquences if we are wrong. We have jobs where the most of the time the only thank you we get is 'Do more'.

    I just HATE unions in general. I have stated my reasons before. They are useless and are NOTHING but dinosaurs from an age when YES they were needed. Now they are money hungry, political terrorists with agendas that do NOTHING but feed their own egos and line their pockets.

    The same jobs get done. That's a FACT. Granted they don't get done at $30.00 an hour but a thousand non-union jobs at $20.00 an hour are better than 500 union jobs at that same $30.00.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by AULupstate View Post
    I don't want to get in a pissing match with prolocator but his legal jargon and terminology are STILL WRONG.

    Contractual Obligation is NOT law, it is just a peice of paper. When the 'real law' gets involved is when said contractual obligations are ignored or violated. Then and ONLY then are there legal ramifications.

    It is a FACT that a 20 (give or take) year senior in the union gets a thousand times better 'representation' than a 5 (or less) year junior. Neither one has ANYTHING to do with what's right and wrong. Seniority gives you the benefits and being low man gives you the shaft. That is how Unions WORK. There rules and regulations have nothing to do with skill and job performance. Anyone who thinks they do needs to have their heads examined. Better yet, join the union. You will fit right in.

    My comments are based in actual experience with the IBEW on two seperate ocassions of being 'laid off' because a senior member of the union was getting shit canned from another division and needed MY JOB to finish out their retirement time. I would have had better success at my 'hearing' if a pile of dog shit was at the table next to me instead of the jerk off union rep. that decided to show up 20 minutes late with 'Sorry but this is only a formality, there's nothing the union can do'.

    Also don't get me wrong. There is no hate or animosity towards union locators. We all do a job that has serious consiquences if we are wrong. We have jobs where the most of the time the only thank you we get is 'Do more'.

    I just HATE unions in general. I have stated my reasons before. They are useless and are NOTHING but dinosaurs from an age when YES they were needed. Now they are money hungry, political terrorists with agendas that do NOTHING but feed their own egos and line their pockets.

    The same jobs get done. That's a FACT. Granted they don't get done at $30.00 an hour but a thousand non-union jobs at $20.00 an hour are better than 500 union jobs at that same $30.00.
    This reply does not speak directly to AUL but corrects an omission in one of my previous posts. I had written to look up fiduciary responsibility rather than give some better examples and links.

    Fiduciary responsibility exists outside of contract as a matte of law dating back to when it was incorporated into English common law, a long time ago.

    It is true that a union may violate it's fiduciary responsibility but such a violation does not mean that the law does not exist.

    Lawyers do not work for the best interests of their clients, priests and school teachers molest children and bankers misappropriate their customer's funds. Yet the laws that prohibit such actions still exist.

    For those of you that are ever in such a situation, and from the posts some of you are union members, you need to know what the law is. If you do not know what the law is you cannot recognize when it has been crossed and cannot defend yourself from those that use your lack of knowledge against you. This is why I wrote this post.

    For a quick look at fiduciary responsibility there is the not always exact Wikipedia. Not always exact but does give a pretty good explanation a layman can understand.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary

    Below is a link regards a New Mexico Supreme Court case where the court allows a union member to sue their union because the union has fiduciary responsibility to the union members.

    http://www.supremecourt.nm.org/cgi-b..../06sc-010.wpd

    The article says in part:



    {2} On appeal the Court of Appeals reversed the district court, reinstating Plaintiffs' complaint in its entirety. Callahan v. Albuquerque TVI Faculty Fed'n Local No. 4974, 2005-NMCA-011, 136 N.M. 731, 104 P.3d 1122. The Court of Appeals held that Plaintiffs could sue Union Defendants for breach of the duty of fair representation, breach of the collective bargaining agreement because Plaintiffs were third-party beneficiaries, breach of the covenant of good faith, and breach of a fiduciary duty. Id. 30. The Court of Appeals opinion also suggests that mere negligence would suffice to prove a breach of the duty of fair representation. Id. 28. In addition, the Court of Appeals decided two issues not specifically addressed by the district court. The Court of Appeals held that Plaintiffs were not required to file their complaint against Union Defendants with the TVI Labor Relations Board as a means of exhausting administrative remedies under the Public Employees Bargaining Act, see NMSA 1978, 10-7D-1 to 10-7D-26 (1992, amended 1997 and 1998, repealed 1999) ("PEBA I")1, and that the international union, American Federation of Teachers ("AFT"), was a proper party defendant under the facts as pled. Id. 30.

    {3} We granted certiorari to consider three issues. One, what is the scope of a public employee union's liability to a member for alleged failure or refusal to adequately represent the employee in a grievance proceeding? Two, whether public employees who seek compensatory damages from their union for inadequate representation during a grievance proceeding must file their complaint against the union with a Labor Relations Board as a prohibited practice in order to exhaust administrative remedies. Three, whether under the facts as pled the international union may be joined as a party defendant. We hold that under the facts pled by Plaintiffs, the only cause of action that may survive a 12(B)(6) motion is the cause of action for breach of the duty of fair representation based only on a showing that the union acted arbitrarily, fraudulently or in bad faith. Plaintiffs were not required to file their complaint with the TVI Labor Relations Board in order to exhaust administrative remedies since their cause of action against Union Defendants is not a prohibited practice under PEBA I. Finally, because Plaintiffs pled that AFT does business in New Mexico as an exclusive bargaining agent for Plaintiffs under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Plaintiffs' complaint survives a 12(B)(6) motion. Accordingly, the Court of Appeals is reversed in part, affirmed in part, and this matter is remanded to the district court for proceedings consistent with this opinion.

  6. #36
    Senior Member 6feetunder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by headcipher View Post
    What's with the hate for in-house locators?

    I can't speak for other outfits, but we locate our own gas, electric, h2o, waste water, fiber, and anything you can imagine at 3 power plants, multiple h2o and waste water plants, and propane and natural gas plants.

    Our damage ratio is better than 1 in 10,000, we have 24 locators and 2 supervisors who were locators themselves.

    We are not union, and I don't think they would ever have anything to offer us.

    All of our locators care about damages, especially since a high profile damage could mean the end of someone's life.

    No one likes when a fool comes on here and uses blanket statements for contract locators, there are good in-house locators.
    My fault I should have been way more specific. I am referring to experience with in-house / union / utility owners/providers, not reffering to in-house locators for schools/power plants / military facilities / not anything like that. It is a blanket statement, but I will say I have met 2 of the union , in-house - utility provider locators who cared about doing the job right, but the rest could care less.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member 6feetunder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator View Post
    This reply does not speak directly to AUL but corrects an omission in one of my previous posts. I had written to look up fiduciary responsibility rather than give some better examples and links.

    Fiduciary responsibility exists outside of contract as a matte of law dating back to when it was incorporated into English common law, a long time ago.

    It is true that a union may violate it's fiduciary responsibility but such a violation does not mean that the law does not exist.

    Lawyers do not work for the best interests of their clients, priests and school teachers molest children and bankers misappropriate their customer's funds. Yet the laws that prohibit such actions still exist.

    For those of you that are ever in such a situation, and from the posts some of you are union members, you need to know what the law is. If you do not know what the law is you cannot recognize when it has been crossed and cannot defend yourself from those that use your lack of knowledge against you. This is why I wrote this post.

    For a quick look at fiduciary responsibility there is the not always exact Wikipedia. Not always exact but does give a pretty good explanation a layman can understand.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary

    Below is a link regards a New Mexico Supreme Court case where the court allows a union member to sue their union because the union has fiduciary responsibility to the union members.

    http://www.supremecourt.nm.org/cgi-b..../06sc-010.wpd

    The article says in part:



    {2} On appeal the Court of Appeals reversed the district court, reinstating Plaintiffs' complaint in its entirety. Callahan v. Albuquerque TVI Faculty Fed'n Local No. 4974, 2005-NMCA-011, 136 N.M. 731, 104 P.3d 1122. The Court of Appeals held that Plaintiffs could sue Union Defendants for breach of the duty of fair representation, breach of the collective bargaining agreement because Plaintiffs were third-party beneficiaries, breach of the covenant of good faith, and breach of a fiduciary duty. Id. 30. The Court of Appeals opinion also suggests that mere negligence would suffice to prove a breach of the duty of fair representation. Id. 28. In addition, the Court of Appeals decided two issues not specifically addressed by the district court. The Court of Appeals held that Plaintiffs were not required to file their complaint against Union Defendants with the TVI Labor Relations Board as a means of exhausting administrative remedies under the Public Employees Bargaining Act, see NMSA 1978, 10-7D-1 to 10-7D-26 (1992, amended 1997 and 1998, repealed 1999) ("PEBA I")1, and that the international union, American Federation of Teachers ("AFT"), was a proper party defendant under the facts as pled. Id. 30.

    {3} We granted certiorari to consider three issues. One, what is the scope of a public employee union's liability to a member for alleged failure or refusal to adequately represent the employee in a grievance proceeding? Two, whether public employees who seek compensatory damages from their union for inadequate representation during a grievance proceeding must file their complaint against the union with a Labor Relations Board as a prohibited practice in order to exhaust administrative remedies. Three, whether under the facts as pled the international union may be joined as a party defendant. We hold that under the facts pled by Plaintiffs, the only cause of action that may survive a 12(B)(6) motion is the cause of action for breach of the duty of fair representation based only on a showing that the union acted arbitrarily, fraudulently or in bad faith. Plaintiffs were not required to file their complaint with the TVI Labor Relations Board in order to exhaust administrative remedies since their cause of action against Union Defendants is not a prohibited practice under PEBA I. Finally, because Plaintiffs pled that AFT does business in New Mexico as an exclusive bargaining agent for Plaintiffs under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Plaintiffs' complaint survives a 12(B)(6) motion. Accordingly, the Court of Appeals is reversed in part, affirmed in part, and this matter is remanded to the district court for proceedings consistent with this opinion.

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    Mke
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    I think we are glossing over one of the biggest facts about the legal system.

    There is Two types of people that benefit from the legal system. Those who have the biggest wallets, and those who have empty wallets.

    The legal system is based on interpretations of law applied to modern day situations. Assuming that you are 100% correct in a legal interpretation of a law is dangerous.

    Go figure. Its a coin flip no matter how you look at it.

    mke

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    Senior Member AULupstate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Isn't that big long response exactly what I said prolocator?

    That it doesn't become a legal issue until there is a breech of contract?

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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    I was a member of CWA and was a in house locator for one of the major phone companies. Last year a whole bunch of locators within this company got laid off. As far as I am concerned CWA nor IBEW work hard enough to keep us our jobs with this company. One guy is correct in house locators is usually a stepping stone to another position as I was shooting to become a engineer. This was our philosophy due to high tkt counts and not enough help was Fiber first, large cables second, 25 pair and down to drops last. If drops dont get marked it is someone else's problem(usually ours cause we usually were sent out to fix drops that got cut cause we unable to get to it). My opinion unions are not worth the dues that get took out of you check

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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by AULupstate View Post
    Isn't that big long response exactly what I said prolocator?

    That it doesn't become a legal issue until there is a breech of contract?
    That is a fine point we differ on. I say the way the law is that the fiduciary responsibility previously existed independent of the any breach of the labor contract.

    For the lay person it does not become an issue until we need it to be. Anyway you look at it there it still is.

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    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by upro View Post
    I was a member of CWA and was a in house locator for one of the major phone companies. Last year a whole bunch of locators within this company got laid off. As far as I am concerned CWA nor IBEW work hard enough to keep us our jobs with this company. One guy is correct in house locators is usually a stepping stone to another position as I was shooting to become a engineer. This was our philosophy due to high tkt counts and not enough help was Fiber first, large cables second, 25 pair and down to drops last. If drops dont get marked it is someone else's problem(usually ours cause we usually were sent out to fix drops that got cut cause we unable to get to it). My opinion unions are not worth the dues that get took out of you check
    There is one large employer in Maryland that is not union, Baltimore Gas & Electric. They do not need to be because the other utilities are union. Their employer does not want one of those other unions there and to keep the unions out they just treat their employees well enough. This way for the employees a union is not worth the bother.

    In Maryland the Verizon employees were represented by CWA, Communications Workers o America. The northern region felt that CWA was not doing enough for them. So they swapped over to
    IBEW. Once you have a union changing unions is relativity easy. Enough employees sign a petition and the NLRB holds a vote to determine which union represents those employees.
    So they simply kicked CWA out the door.

    Some employees are just anti-union and oppose them for no other reason.
    Some employees are pro-union and want one for no other reason.
    Most employees require a reason which in the end makes the choice to go union management's. If the company makes it worthwhile for the employees to go union they will.

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    Senior Member headcipher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator View Post

    Some employees are just anti-union and oppose them for no other reason.
    Some employees are pro-union and want one for no other reason.
    Most employees require a reason which in the end makes the choice to go union management's. If the company makes it worthwhile for the employees to go union they will.
    I have never heard of management ever wanting their workforce to go union.

    I know why my family, friends, many co-workers, and myself are anti-union. We have seen unions in action. I've seen 3 different unions burn 3 different direct family family members. The union has only hurt my dad, brother, and wife.

    Many, many people oppose unions for these reasons and no others.

    Doubt me? Ask all the steel workers in my home town. Ask anyone who has lost a job they were qualified and good at because some loser who had stuck around for 1 second more wanted their job.

  14. #44
    Senior Member ProfessionalLocator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any other union locators out here?

    Originally Posted by ProfessionalLocator View Post

    Some employees are just anti-union and oppose them for no other reason.
    Some employees are pro-union and want one for no other reason.
    Most employees require a reason which in the end makes the choice to go union management's. If the company makes it worthwhile for the employees to go union they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by headcipher View Post
    I have never heard of management ever wanting their workforce to go union.

    I know why my family, friends, many co-workers, and myself are anti-union. We have seen unions in action. I've seen 3 different unions burn 3 different direct family family members. The union has only hurt my dad, brother, and wife.

    Many, many people oppose unions for these reasons and no others.

    Doubt me? Ask all the steel workers in my home town. Ask anyone who has lost a job they were qualified and good at because some loser who had stuck around for 1 second more wanted their job.
    You are right when you wrote "I have never heard of management ever wanting their workforce to go union."

    What I wrote was;

    "Most employees require a reason which in the end makes the choice to go union management's. If the company makes it worthwhile for the employees to go union they will."

    This does not mean the company wants a union. It means that the company makes the choice to go union by treating their employees so poorly that the employees then want to go union. No company wants to go union but they make the choice to go union by providing their employees with a reason.

    You also wrote "Ask anyone who has lost a job they were qualified and good at because some loser who had stuck around for 1 second more wanted their job."


    This is called seniority and is usually a labor contract clause that the union members voted on and accepted. Seniority can be a double edged sword and can cut the employee was well as cure many ills.

    Seniority provides that when time for layoffs comes those that have been employed the shortest amount of time go first in the order of their seniority, hire date. This eliminates or greatly reduces playing favorites so the foreman's drinking buddies or relatives do not keep their jobs while you are let go. It also provides that when time comes for an in job promotion, or in-grade promotion if you will, you cannot be passed over in favor of a personal friend of a supervisor. True they can still deny you promotion or a raise but the grievance process, binding arbitration and courts systems provides you can still get your promotion or raise with back pay.

    A union is like an axe, it is neither good nor bad, it is only what the person wielding it does. Cut wood and the axe is a good thing, chop up your neighbor and it is a bad thing.

    I am fine with either nonunion or a union workplace, it just does not matter to me. This is why my response on this subject are neither pro or anti union, I am just evaluating things as they are.

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