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Wingfoot
September 14th, 2008, 04:10 AM
I would take you seriously if you provided a link to a FACTUAL news story, with verified sources. Instead, the links go to opinionated blogs that have no need to report the truth, or verifiable facts.

I am open to reports of truth, or at least facts that can be substantiated. Everyone has an opinion, just because you put it in a blog and publish it to the public does not make it correct, or true, or even believable, unless you just want to believe unsubstantiated statements of supposed facts...in other words, gullable, very gullable.
McCain has said repeatedly that he was afforded no special treatment while in the "Hanoi Hilton". Yet when he was first interviewed by the North Vietnamese he is shown at a hospital reserved for Vietnamese military and he was seen by Soviet Surgeons.

His wife at the time, was a member of the National League of Families and she fought to make sure that John McCain came home. He rewarded this loyalty by divorcing her after his return.

He was shot down October 26, 1967. By November 9, 1967 he was giving interviews to foreign correspondents, providing information on his prior command, casualties and tactics, in direct violation of the Code of Conduct. (The U.S. military Code of Conduct is the definitive code specifying the responsibilities of American military personnel while in combat or captivity. Article V of the Code is very specific in ordering U.S. military personnel to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies, or harmful to their cause. Any willful violation of the Code is considered collaborating with the enemy.)

Most of the Hanoi Hilton was razed in 1993, and only a sliver of it has been preserved as a tourist attraction. McCain's helmet, oxygen mask and a flight suit (McCain denies they're his) are on display. The communist Vietnamese erected a concrete monument that stands beside the lake where John McCain was shot down. The monument depicts an American pilot, hands raised in surrender. McCain's defenders say that this is a tribute to the People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) gunners that shot him down. Or could it be the communist Vietnamese tribute to their war hero, an American defector?

In the interview that McCain gave on November 9, 1967 to the Visiting Nurse Association International, he claims he bailed out and landed in a lake. McCain stated that the locals pulled him out and took him to the hospital. Yet in the U.S. News and World Report - May 14, 1973 (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html) McCain is quoted as saying, "I think it was on the fourth day (after being shot down) that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size of a football . . . when I saw it, I said to the guard, Ok, get the officer'...an officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as 'The Bug'. He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, Ok, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

While testifying before the Senate Select Committee, the very man McCain claims was responsible for his own torture, his interrogator, "The Bug" was appearing. When the moment of confrontation came, McCain rose from his seat, walked from the podium to the floor and stood face to face with the man who was responsible for torturing him and countless other Prisoners of War...McCain then grabbed the man and embraced him!

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/wingfootsmp/mcain_bu.gif

John McCain has been a consistent advocate of lenient treatment of Vietnam.

While a member of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs (1991-1993) he referred to POW/MIA Family Members and POW/MIA Activists as whiners, vultures and the lunatic fringe.

Although the Senate Select Committee concluded that we left men behind, McCain crossed party lines to help lift the embargo and normalize relations with Vietnam. "It's very important for us to recognize that the war is over, ... In my view, an improvement in relations between our two countries does a whole of lot things from a practical standpoint, but it also, from a spiritual standpoint indicates that we are ready to close that chapter," McCain said. (Many POWs and families of MIAs would strongly disagree that is time to close this chapter! Improving relations with Vietnam stood to benefit the McCain's family as they hold a large interest (http://www.uhuh.com/politics/mccain/mcainwnxs.htm) in the Budweiser Corporation. Surprise, surprise Bud (http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2008/06/09/daily7.html) was among the first large U.S. Corporations to enter Vietnam after relations were normalized.)

He ignored a letter from former POW, Capt. Eugene "Red" McDaniel, co-signed by 50 former POWs which asked that the embargo not be lifted and not to normalize relations and still McCain would not be swayed.

When the Missing Service Personnel Act of 1996 came on the Senate Floor for debate, Senator McCain called this bill "un-necessary" and "burdensome" even though the MSPA was sponsored by the then majority leader and the man who had considered asking John McCain to run with him, Sen. Bob Dole.

McCain managed to get the MSPA amended by removing criminal liability and several articles that were important to POW/MIA Family members.

Listen to what fellow members of the U.S. House of Representatives (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c46_1200730386) have to say about John McCain on the POW/MIA issue!

-----------------

John McCain's selling out and stabbing his former friends in the back is his preferred tactic. Ask the families of the POW/MIAs who enthusiastically backed McCain when he first ran for Congress only to be dry-gulched (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AWeZrdxfQ) by him when he no longer found them useful. As a gratuitous, sadistic flourish, McCain even had them investigated by the Justice Department on trumped-up charges. The fact that they were exonerated on all counts has yet to make an impression on McCain's airhead supporters who continue to trumpet the phony charges in deceitful neo-McCarthyite fashion. John McCain is an abysmal mediocrity who would never have made it on a level playing field. He was fifth from the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. He racked up three life threatening "Dangerous Downs" at flight school -- the last one for flying his aircraft into the sea while asleep -- enough to get anyone without his political influence bounced down the back stairs. As for his record as a senator, can anyone remember a single significant thing this man has accomplished in more than a dozen years as a member of the Senate? Anything other than sell out the POWs and promote the interests of Communist Vietnam, that is. To those who have recently determined that we just HAVE to have this man as our next president, I pose the following question: WHY?

Hurricane9
September 14th, 2008, 06:33 AM
McCain has said repeatedly that he was afforded no special treatment while in the "Hanoi Hilton". Yet when he was first interviewed by the North Vietnamese he is shown at a hospital reserved for Vietnamese military and he was seen by Soviet Surgeons.
Officers are to be treated differently(as officers) under the Geneva Conventions. How many Vietnamese surgeons do you think there were in 1967?

His wife at the time, was a member of the National League of Families and she fought to make sure that John McCain came home. He rewarded this loyalty by divorcing her after his return.
So his marriage ended. He was probably suffering from PTSD, but they didn't know about it then. Look at the divorce rate in the military, it's higher than any other profession. It happens.
He was shot down October 26, 1967. By November 9, 1967 he was giving interviews to foreign correspondents, providing information on his prior command, casualties and tactics, in direct violation of the Code of Conduct. (The U.S. military Code of Conduct is the definitive code specifying the responsibilities of American military personnel while in combat or captivity. Article V of the Code is very specific in ordering U.S. military personnel to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies, or harmful to their cause. Any willful violation of the Code is considered collaborating with the enemy.)
At that time in Vietnam, commanders were being rotated out every 6 months. So when he was giving these interviews, there was already at least two rotations of commanders at his unit, so things changed a great deal. Tactics already changed too. They evolve constantly, and after a year, those tactics he was discussing, if he was, were outdated.
You are quoting the Code of Conduct. See the part that says "to the utmost" of their ability? Unless you were there, you have no idea what his limit was. No one does.

Most of the Hanoi Hilton was razed in 1993, and only a sliver of it has been preserved as a tourist attraction. McCain's helmet, oxygen mask and a flight suit (McCain denies they're his) are on display. The communist Vietnamese erected a concrete monument that stands beside the lake where John McCain was shot down. The monument depicts an American pilot, hands raised in surrender. McCain's defenders say that this is a tribute to the People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) gunners that shot him down. Or could it be the communist Vietnamese tribute to their war hero, an American defector?
You get shot down, punching out of a jet at 25000 feet, going just shy of the speed of sound. You land in a strange place, with an injured leg. You notice a bunch of people coming at you that, 10 minutes ago, you were getting ready to do harm to. Do you pull out your .45 pistol, and fire the 11 shots you have, or do you surrender?

In the interview that McCain gave on November 9, 1967 to the Visiting Nurse Association International, he claims he bailed out and landed in a lake. McCain stated that the locals pulled him out and took him to the hospital. Yet in the U.S. News and World Report - May 14, 1973 (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account.html) McCain is quoted as saying, "I think it was on the fourth day (after being shot down) that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size of a football . . . when I saw it, I said to the guard, Ok, get the officer'...an officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as 'The Bug'. He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, Ok, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

While testifying before the Senate Select Committee, the very man McCain claims was responsible for his own torture, his interrogator, "The Bug" was appearing. When the moment of confrontation came, McCain rose from his seat, walked from the podium to the floor and stood face to face with the man who was responsible for torturing him and countless other Prisoners of War...McCain then grabbed the man and embraced him!
That shows a great person right there. Being able to forgive the man that caused you years of pain. Jesus did the same thing on the cross asking God to forgive the Romans "for they know not what they do"
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/wingfootsmp/mcain_bu.gif

John McCain has been a consistent advocate of lenient treatment of Vietnam.

While a member of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs (1991-1993) he referred to POW/MIA Family Members and POW/MIA Activists as whiners, vultures and the lunatic fringe. Proof? A quote from a reliable source?

Although the Senate Select Committee concluded that we left men behind, McCain crossed party lines to help lift the embargo and normalize relations with Vietnam. "It's very important for us to recognize that the war is over, ... In my view, an improvement in relations between our two countries does a whole of lot things from a practical standpoint, but it also, from a spiritual standpoint indicates that we are ready to close that chapter," McCain said. (Many POWs and families of MIAs would strongly disagree that is time to close this chapter! Improving relations with Vietnam stood to benefit the McCain's family as they hold a large interest (http://www.uhuh.com/politics/mccain/mcainwnxs.htm) in the Budweiser Corporation. Surprise, surprise Bud (http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2008/06/09/daily7.html) was among the first large U.S. Corporations to enter Vietnam after relations were normalized.)
And look what happened since we improved relations. We are now allowed to send MILITARY search teams over to find, recover, and identify POW remains. So I guess it was a good idea to improve relations.
He ignored a letter from former POW, Capt. Eugene "Red" McDaniel, co-signed by 50 former POWs which asked that the embargo not be lifted and not to normalize relations and still McCain would not be swayed.

When the Missing Service Personnel Act of 1996 came on the Senate Floor for debate, Senator McCain called this bill "un-necessary" and "burdensome" even though the MSPA was sponsored by the then majority leader and the man who had considered asking John McCain to run with him, Sen. Bob Dole.

McCain managed to get the MSPA amended by removing criminal liability and several articles that were important to POW/MIA Family members.
It was a war. It makes no sense to allow criminal liability. Who are the families going to sue? And if they sue, what court will hear the arguements?

Listen to what fellow members of the U.S. House of Representatives (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c46_1200730386) have to say about John McCain on the POW/MIA issue!

-----------------

John McCain's selling out and stabbing his former friends in the back is his preferred tactic. Ask the families of the POW/MIAs who enthusiastically backed McCain when he first ran for Congress only to be dry-gulched (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AWeZrdxfQ) by him when he no longer found them useful. As a gratuitous, sadistic flourish, McCain even had them investigated by the Justice Department on trumped-up charges. The fact that they were exonerated on all counts has yet to make an impression on McCain's airhead supporters who continue to trumpet the phony charges in deceitful neo-McCarthyite fashion. John McCain is an abysmal mediocrity who would never have made it on a level playing field. He was fifth from the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. He racked up three life threatening "Dangerous Downs" at flight school -- the last one for flying his aircraft into the sea while asleep -- enough to get anyone without his political influence bounced down the back stairs. As for his record as a senator, can anyone remember a single significant thing this man has accomplished in more than a dozen years as a member of the Senate? Anything other than sell out the POWs and promote the interests of Communist Vietnam, that is. To those who have recently determined that we just HAVE to have this man as our next president, I pose the following question: WHY?

Having a pilot fall asleep is nothing new. See my link below for 116,000 links to stories about pilots falling asleep. The man has much more experience in government then Obama. Obama was a state senator for 10 years, and a US Congressman for 4 years. Not much time. Besides that, McCain's plan for Iraq and Afghanistan makes much more sense than Obama's. McCain is proven to be able to handle stress, and make decisions under pressure. Combine that with his choice of running mate, and you have a winning combination.
http://www.google.co.uk/custom?q=pilots+fall+asleep&sa=Search&client=pub-2070091971271392&forid=1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3B VLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3 A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000% 3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1

AULupstate
September 14th, 2008, 07:51 AM
'Promote the interests of Communist Vietnam', wow, that's classic to use as a hammering point. Since Nixon went to China in the 70's our Government both Republican and Democrat have been 'promoting' communist interest (guess who we owe ALOT of money to?). If you shop for pretty much ANYTHING you are promoting communist interest (Wal-Mart, Target etc. etc.)
Now as far as selling out POWs and MIAs that needs alittle more investigating for me to comment on.

yahoo
September 14th, 2008, 07:27 PM
wow....i'm not even worthy to comment on this post.....you guys really do your homework...good job

RoadMap
September 15th, 2008, 01:02 AM
Hey WING I was not aware that you served in the military. I was not aware because you didn't!!! I believe it does not make you a trader if you give up info after you have been beaten almost to death several times. The rule is to hold out as long as you can. And give up as little as you can. But there is no doctrine for what McCain went through. 5 and 1/2 years is a long time to take beating after beating. I do not even begin to know what he went through. But busting his balls for it is plain unamerican.

Hell just put yourself in his shoes and see if you could handle just the mental aspect. You could not. I bet I could break you in about a week. You stand for nothing and did not serve your country. Instead you pussed out. 3 weeks with you I could have you telling all kinds of stories to your friends and give up everything and every bad thing you ever did. And you would be telling everyone about your uplifting experience you had while having sex with 3 monkies and panda bear!!!

AULupstate
September 15th, 2008, 02:00 AM
Here is a tip about Interogations and 'Usefull' Information.
First off after you have been captured your going to get beaten up pretty bad for about a week and no one is going to ask you anything, they're just going to kick the shit out you. Then the interogation starts.
Second, Pretty much anything you know of any REAL use, ANYONE can find out with a lap top and an internet conection.
Third, REAL information ie. Troop movement, battle plans, information on upcoming missions are NOT given to you (the lowly instrument of such plans) until the last minute for such security reasons.
POW's are taken for Propoganda and Trading purposes later on down the road. Good Intel doesn't come from POW's because they don't know shit and will say anything to stop from being beaten or tortured anymore. 1 out of 100 has anything usefull to say. Then that creates a drain on resources by keeping POW's around, it dains food supplies, manpower, construction material etc..
Yes I did say torture. They will not just tell you stuff because they feel like talking and having a conversation.

scap
September 15th, 2008, 01:00 PM
Regardless of either candidate's past, albeit McCain's full of experience and Obama's a true haze of things he will only bring back up if thrown in his face; the simple truth is that Obama has already blown this campaign by not choosing Hillary as a VP, by not choosing Hillary he instantly began slipping in female democratic polls as much as 20 PERCENT...

Which, is no suprise, as...the 'glass ceiling' being broken in the white house is more important to people, than a negro in office; liberal women, even black liberal women will now vote for McCain/Palin, but they are really voting for Palin, because they want a woman in the white house who can possibly even become president, (McCain IS old)...but people trying to throw dirt on each candidate at this point is really, a joke, since we all already know who the winner is.

There's a thing called the 'point of no return', Obama crossed that by picking Porky Pig (Joe Biden) as his running mate, a guy everyone pretty much despises...It was the superb ****up, thank god he had the ignorance to do such a thing otherwise we may have ended up with a leader similar to the guy in Idiocracy.

scap
September 15th, 2008, 01:14 PM
To those who have recently determined that we just HAVE to have this man as our next president, I pose the following question: WHY?[/SIZE][/FONT]

I never understood why liberals feel the need to login, and post stuff like this you probably copied and pasted from an "Obama-Messiah.com" site, or something as such. But I suppose I could somehow understand, seeing that Obama's dropped a good twenty points behind McCain in polls.

You have to understand something, and understand it well. All politicians lie and bullshit, by pointing your finger at McCain and saying 'Wah wah, he gave this Vietnamese guy a hug, look how rotten he is!' Really makes me laugh... ;)

Barry Obama, failed to answer when a human being deserved human rights, claiming it's above his pay grade, while McCain nailed it within 2 seconds with a simple answer. 'Conception'

He wants to increase taxes on guys who make over 100 grand a year, if this doesn't mean you, it means your employer. If you're a locator, expect less hours, more pennypinching, etc...

The fact is, the trail of Obama was much like your average roller coaster. At first, he had people fainting (rofl) and was deemed the "New Messiah", could turn dust into one of eddie murphy's ghetto onion burgas, along with some free cheese; but once his 20 year existence at an overly radial, racial church and having all these close affliations with ****sticks like Wright, it presented a problem to his campaign, and now that he's ****ed around and picked Porky Pig as a VP, he's sealed his own coffin. Have a nice day.

scap
September 15th, 2008, 01:16 PM
wow....i'm not even worthy to comment on this post.....you guys really do your homework...good job


it's called copy and paste

ifinditunderground
September 15th, 2008, 03:19 PM
I want to jump in here.......but no way am I gonna.....

USIC1
September 15th, 2008, 09:42 PM
I dont have a problem addressing the issue-

Its gonna boil down to an OBAMA landslide - by the time the election gets here the country will be so intolerant of the current regimes destruction IT WONT MATTER WHO RUNS AGAINST MCSAME AND THE OLD POLICIES... No one will want to risk another 4 yrs....

I know its hard for some to get off there chest the truth...

Being Left...Its whats good for the nation...

Hurricane9
September 16th, 2008, 03:30 AM
People on the Right don't mind the Left people.

As long as it's in a past tense, like "they finally LEFT the nation, and moved to Canada" :p


McCain will win. People will see Obabma for what he is, and run far and fast away from him.

scap
September 16th, 2008, 12:59 PM
I dont have a problem addressing the issue-

Its gonna boil down to an OBAMA landslide - by the time the election gets here the country will be so intolerant of the current regimes destruction IT WONT MATTER WHO RUNS AGAINST MCSAME AND THE OLD POLICIES... No one will want to risk another 4 yrs....

I know its hard for some to get off there chest the truth...

Being Left...Its whats good for the nation...

I'm about to head out for another twelve hour day, and the one forum I frequent has this liberal puke on it. But you know what I'm going to do? I'll just take the political way out and drop it on these terms; argue with an idiot in public, and be labeled an idiot by the public.

RoadMap
September 16th, 2008, 01:54 PM
People on the Right don't mind the Left people.

As long as it's in a past tense, like "they finally LEFT the nation, and moved to Canada"

I have heard this before from a leftist named Barbara Streisand. She said and I quote " If Bush wins the election I will no longer live in the United States". Can someone tell me why that bitch is still HERE???:verymad:

USIC1
September 16th, 2008, 11:10 PM
I'm about to head out for another twelve hour day, and the one forum I frequent has this liberal puke on it. But you know what I'm going to do? I'll just take the political way out and drop it on these terms; argue with an idiot in public, and be labeled an idiot by the public.

I suggest it could the pot calling the kettle its black-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZETNgujLw

TBONE
September 17th, 2008, 02:23 AM
CHANGE AMERICA :soapbox:

sprayandpray
September 17th, 2008, 12:28 PM
How?

sprayandpray
September 17th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Ahem How?

USIC1
October 11th, 2008, 03:14 PM
Remember this at the polls-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXjWguoFbpI

Oh yeah facts!!!!

ifinditunderground
October 11th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Yes USIC, John McCain summed it up nicely.........GET A LIFE! LOL good one USIC!

USIC1
October 11th, 2008, 08:09 PM
Just 1 convert could help improve this country by eliminating the old guard trying to hold on to the old school of thought...

And that will be mission accomplished...


Do it for the country and your childrens children....

Its time for a change!!!


I approve this message...


:waving:

ifinditunderground
October 12th, 2008, 12:30 AM
I'm about to head out for another twelve hour day, and the one forum I frequent has this liberal puke on it. But you know what I'm going to do? I'll just take the political way out and drop it on these terms; argue with an idiot in public, and be labeled an idiot by the public.

Amen Scap......Amen. Thanks.

ifinditunderground
October 12th, 2008, 12:38 AM
Now that I have had time to sit and read thru some of the postings here and can comment intelligently, I find I don't have to.......Hurricane, I think you said it all and if I tried to add to your comments in RED (posting # 2)to Wing's Cut and Paste I'd be doing you a disservice. Great Job, nicely done. Wing, you are probably a top notch locator, and a Mopar man, NOT a Tree Hugger and a Racing fan like myself. But I will never be into conspiracy theories and just can't go along with you on this one man. GWJ_CAS- you took the words right out of my mouth.