Locating Jobs-

[USIC1]

I believe a quality company would want to impress a prospective quality employee with greater detail of what they have to offer rather than only list expectations...

Any company IMHO not willing to lay out a little criteria in there adds is a first and last impression....

I m not fingering out anyone company...I have contacted a few in the past and I hate to hangup fairly abruptly when discovering they want something for nothing...Sometimes I want to start in with the are you kidding me but have to bite my tongue and decline...

Well just my 2 cents on employment interests...

Spooked by
shallow adds...

[underground quester]

Cheat:

It is frustrating for someone who is genuinely looking for work when more details are not given, because that forces you as a job seeker to phone and ask lots of questions only to find out its too much job, not enough job, crappy pay, etc.

Over the years though I have had to hire tons of people. From an employers perspective they must be careful not to give away too much info BECAUSE someone looking for work is NOT the only one reading the advertisement. Quite often, the competition spots the add and too much info can create demands on pay, benefits, etc. A company, especially one that has public shareholders has to try to get the most "WORKER" they can for the least expense they can. That is demanded by the shareholders.

That is one reason, another might be that the company wants to test the waters to see who will apply. Frequently, there is an unwritten scale of pay. The more experience you bring, the more they MAY be willing to pay you. So if they put too many details in the ad. it may limit who they can hire.

Too many details may also scare away a good employee who thinks they want too much work, or, some parts of what they want the prospect may not have done before. By not putting too much up front, it allows them to talk to the person, find out what they can do and cannot do and talk them in to the job. Some companies will hire the right person (good attitude) over a more experienced person because you can train them to do the job but you cannot "adjust" or "train their attitude".

Also, sometimes, I was just in a hurry and had 100 things on my plate, and getting this job ad off my desk did not take up a big part of my day.

So, as you may see, there are reasons from both perspectives.

I agree it is frustrating as I have been on both sides. As a person looking for work at times find myself saying "why the hell don't they give more details so I don't have to guess what they want". It is especially bothersome when they end the ad. saying "no phone calls please". URRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!:mad:

[yahoo]

and here we remain.............please come to work for us ....we will start you out at 10 bucks an hour and give you some benefits......by the way mcdonalds here in my state starts out fresh employees at 8 bucks an hour....and here we remain.....what can we say cheater clip.....

[underground quester]

and here we remain.............please come to work for us ....we will start you out at 10 bucks an hour and give you some benefits......by the way mcdonalds here in my state starts out fresh employees at 8 bucks an hour....and here we remain.....what can we say cheater clip.....


A question I have always thought about asking. If the starting wage for a locator is about $10.00 give or take, based on your economy is that low, or, does it allow a basic living wage?

We start a nubee here at $14.50 an hour but our economy is really churning along at the moment so by economic standards $14.50 does not really allow one to feed a family.

An average 2 bedroom home to rent is around $1000.00. Groceries for two of us average around $700.00 month, utilities about $300.00 month. So a single person earning 14.50 hr here can't really even make ends meet. Two incomes are required without a doubt.

[UULC]

Here in Tampa, we would start a nooby without experience at 12.50 hr. Experienced between 14.50 and 16.50 an hr. The only way to make it here is to work all the ot that is given out.


:ylsuper:

[USIC1]

Well thanks for all the rebuttals anyway...

I think it truly is a bitch of an environment to survive these days...

I look at those myramar people though and guess things could be worse...

[sprayandpray]

Here in Tampa, we would start a nooby without experience at 12.50 hr. Experienced between 14.50 and 16.50 an hr. The only way to make it here is to work all the ot that is given out.


:ylsuper:

There was an article in the paper the other day about a recession and one of the factors was the loss of overtime by a large # of employees. All I can say is:They don't work for SM&P in the DFW area. Our District - 5 groups-is working mandatory overtime this coming Sat. 1st time anyone can remember the entire District being forced to work. Can you say "Ka-ching"-$$$

[big boots mcghee]

You've got to grab the ot while it's available. This job would not be worth the frustrations if it were 40 hours a week year round. The only thing that allows me to put up with it for as long as I have is knowing hours are generally unlimited in the warmer months and I can make excess money to support my family when things slow down for us.

Multi-billion dollar infrastructures being entrusted to $10/hr employees........scary.

[GWJ_CAS]

Multi-billion dollar infrastructures being entrusted to $10/hr employees........scary.

This is one of my biggest arguments in favor of National Locator Certification. Utility locating is a PROFESSIONAL SERVICE that demands accuracy, somewhat akin to being a surveyor or engineer, especially considering the knowledge and understanding of complex systems installed where you cannot physically see them.

We call it trying to solve an engineering level problem with folks making busboy wages.

[USIC1]

This is one of my biggest arguments in favor of National Locator Certification. Utility locating is a PROFESSIONAL SERVICE that demands accuracy, somewhat akin to being a surveyor or engineer, especially considering the knowledge and understanding of complex systems installed where you cannot physically see them.

We call it trying to solve an engineering level problem with folks making
busboy wages.


SSSSOOOOO...

How bout a UNION with OJT classroom/field for say 3 yrs just like other worthwhile trades???

OOPS!!!!:p

:escape:

[underground quester]

This is one of my biggest arguments in favor of National Locator Certification. Utility locating is a PROFESSIONAL SERVICE that demands accuracy, somewhat akin to being a surveyor or engineer, especially considering the knowledge and understanding of complex systems installed where you cannot physically see them.

We call it trying to solve an engineering level problem with folks making busboy wages.


Wow, best quote I have seen in a while. Great job of culling all the crap and telling it like it is. ThanX!!

[2RUDE]

This is one of my biggest arguments in favor of National Locator Certification. Utility locating is a PROFESSIONAL SERVICE that demands accuracy, somewhat akin to being a surveyor or engineer, especially considering the knowledge and understanding of complex systems installed where you cannot physically see them.

We call it trying to solve an engineering level problem with folks making busboy wages.

Well put Brother! Hopefully that day isn't too awfully much further around the corner....

[USIC1]

Well put Brother! Hopefully that day isn't too awfully much further around the corner....


Well then lets just stay naive and maybe 10$ hr will eventually be top pay in the next 10yrs for lack of locator leverage and the ability of companys to throw a newby out in the field after a few weeks training to get whacked up sent packing and keep the cycle going...

[underground quester]

Well then lets just stay naive and maybe 10$ hr will eventually be top pay in the next 10yrs for lack of locator leverage and the ability of companys to throw a newby out in the field after a few weeks training to get whacked up sent packing and keep the cycle going...




Yup!, that's about how I see it.

Meanwhile management is saying "Why the hell can't we hire a good employee?"

What happens to nubee's sometimes scares the hell out of me.

[gypsygirl]

With multiple contracts, I cannot imagine coming in as a off the street newbie and having to learn 3 - 4 different utilities and be expected to do them all well in a relatively short period of time! I'm glad when I started out I only had 2 to learn and then built up from there. But hey... as "they" all seem to think... anyone can do this job... yeah ... right!

[LadyLeatherneck]

When a locating company hires newbies and sends them in the field to do difficult locates without supervision, they are going to cost themselves a lot of money in the end. I thought this industry was about safety and making money for the company. They kick themselves in the back side. Look at the recent settlement in Atlanta - $10,000 out of the locating company's pocket, and that is just one example - and it is in fact a small example. Those in this industry with experience still make mistakes and they know what they are doing. They need to be paid for their knowledge.

[underground quester]

When a locating company hires newbies and sends them in the field to do difficult locates without supervision, they are going to cost themselves a lot of money in the end. I thought this industry was about safety and making money for the company. They kick themselves in the back side. Look at the recent settlement in Atlanta - $10,000 out of the locating company's pocket, and that is just one example - and it is in fact a small example. Those in this industry with experience still make mistakes and they know what they are doing. They need to be paid for their knowledge.

You have hit on a sore point here with many of us on the forum L.L.
We absolutely agree with you.

In our company the individuals maybe get 4 weeks training, then directly out into the field, no ride alongs, nothing.

I have one young lady working in my area who clearly does not get locating and is waaaay out of her comfort zone. She called me for help the other day because she could not locate an 8" PE gas main. She was 10 feet NORTH of the line and was direct connected. I guided her to the line and she then located it, but she had no idea how to hook up to locate a telephone duct, or traffic. I essentially completed the locate for her and had her start the drawing.

Two days later she is on the corner of one of the most congested (utility wise) intersections in the city. She is standing in front of a CATV pedestal crying because she cannot figure out how to hook up to the TELEPHONE lines. I gently guided her over to the phone ped and showed her the fiber line connection.

Before anyone jumps on me here, GENDER is NOT THE ISSUE. Crappy training is, lack of proper dispatching, lack of ride alongs to allow them to hone their skills, lack of proper management planning for the work force.

Christ, I had a discussion with my manager a few months back and he said he considers someone a SENIOR LOCATOR after 12 months. I said "say what?" Are you nuts?

As many people on this forum have previously read in one of my past memos, 95% of the problems occuring within an organization are because of a management failure somewhere. Managements sole role is to figure out where the problems are, the choke points, the frustration gathering places and fix those. If they cannot do that, they are not doing themselves, their employees nor their company any good!

:mad:


Holy crap there I go again, getting all wound up like a top... I'll get off my soap box now.

[yahoo]

no no that is well put !!!!!!!! i am so jealous your posts are so well thought out!!! good post dude...

[sprayandpray]

I recently heard that USIC is going to 4 weeks of training instead of 3. It reminded me of something I learned playing HS sports. The old saying "Practice makes perfect" was amended by my football coach to "Perfect practice makes perfect". In other words, if you don't practice correctly you don't learn correctly. Ergo, if you aren't taught correctly, you don't learn correctly. I was in a class of 10 for 2 weeks and learned 4-way. I was immediately put on an on-going project for about 6-8 hrs per day for the 1st 2 weeks with 3-5 house tickets thrown in each day. After 4 weeks I was given my own territory. I had to call for help several times but I never suffered the total frustration I see our new hires go thru.

The training position must get awful boring because I hear a lot of Newbs comment on how bored the Trainer seems to be. Maybe the company needs to re-think their policy of the same Trainer, class after class.

[big boots mcghee]

I have yet to do so, but I've occassionally asked to sit in on a training class for few days because I want to know what these new techs are being taught. They come out of class lacking some of the basics and in my opinion that is just unacceptable. The senior techs in the field typically have way too much on their plates to be asked to run what amounts to an additional training class in the field, and it leaves me asking what these guys are actually being taught and trained on in their 3-4 weeks of in class training. Although, I will say that having been through phone training these last couple of weekends that some of these trainers really have no clue and should not be teaching mass amounts of people how to do anything, let alone locate utility lines. I don't know how they got their jobs in the first place, but they need to be held accountable for their poor training.

[underground quester]

I have yet to do so, but I've occassionally asked to sit in on a training class for few days because I want to know what these new techs are being taught. They come out of class lacking some of the basics and in my opinion that is just unacceptable. The senior techs in the field typically have way too much on their plates to be asked to run what amounts to an additional training class in the field, and it leaves me asking what these guys are actually being taught and trained on in their 3-4 weeks of in class training. Although, I will say that having been through phone training these last couple of weekends that some of these trainers really have no clue and should not be teaching mass amounts of people how to do anything, let alone locate utility lines. I don't know how they got their jobs in the first place, but they need to be held accountable for their poor training.


Good Job telling it like it should be BBM.

In any training situation, the company must start out with a trainer who is passionate about their work and can impart conceptual data clearly.
Too often, it is someone who screwed up in the field or, someone with little organizational/training skills who ends up with the job.

Additionally, the student must be held accountable by testing them 2-3 times per day, and be given a mixture of dedicated classroom time and dedicated field work. The field work also needs to be tested by answering 10 -15 questions about things they LEARNED in the field, DAILY. That way, the teacher can grasp who has a handle on what and where they are struggling so those areas can be discussed perhaps in a different way until the student learns. It also MAY or MAY NOT give early indications of who is likely to make it and who is not. Sometimes as a company it is better to cut your losses early. If however, you see someone who is really trying hard and struggling, well, cut them some slack and give them more time and maybe they may well turn out to be a great locator!

Finally, the trainees also require dedicated time on the machines and opportunities to trouble shoot with written and field testing on their knowledge and skill development in that area as well.

Unfortunately, some companies stick someone up front who drones on like a tenured prof. and they call that training. After 20 minutes, or, a time sufficient for their butts to become numb, the trainees turn the trainer off.

THAT'S NOT TRAINING!! That's capitulation of corporate responsibility and due diligence!


Again BBM, great post!:drinks:

[LadyLeatherneck]

You are so right Underground, and I have never been able to understand this concept. Our companies aren't just out locating everyday because they are bored and have nothing better to do. They have invested money and time in these companies and I do not understand why they do not want to listen to those who have years of experience, especially when they are all saying the same things. Training is the beginning of making money for these companies. Well trained newbies would give them an advantage at the starting gate of possibly not having as many damages up front, which would reduce their overhead tremendously - this is a no brainer. But they don't seem to listen now, nor have they ever listened. Instead of understanding that most (not all) of the experienced locators have a lot invested in these companies as well and most of us want to see them succeed because their success is our success. Experienced locators are not children who need to be watched and scrutinized continuously. They are mature adults with families to raise and provide for and they take pride in what they do everyday.

[underground quester]

You are so right Underground, and I have never been able to understand this concept. Our companies aren't just out locating everyday because they are bored and have nothing better to do. They have invested money and time in these companies and I do not understand why they do not want to listen to those who have years of experience, especially when they are all saying the same things. Training is the beginning of making money for these companies. Well trained newbies would give them an advantage at the starting gate of possibly not having as many damages up front, which would reduce their overhead tremendously - this is a no brainer. But they don't seem to listen now, nor have they ever listened. Instead of understanding that most (not all) of the experienced locators have a lot invested in these companies as well and most of us want to see them succeed because their success is our success. Experienced locators are not children who need to be watched and scrutinized continuously. They are mature adults with families to raise and provide for and they take pride in what they do everyday.


Wow! great post AGAIN L.L.!!!

I sure cannot add much to what you have said!

I will offer one brief comment (ya, I know when were you ever brief U.G.) as I have said in another post the Japanese are kicking our sad sack butts all over town because they have turned the corporate culture and its thinking upside down. They believe in training and education and they build it in to every work process and measure its (the trainings) success at every step. They train then empower their people and then give them the properly working and calibrated tools required to do the job. The employees are involved in quality circles where they make decisions about how to solve problems that impact their day to day work.

All decisions are focused on how to make a better product for the customer and be more cost efficient. Because in quality, there is less waste, less downtime, fewer imperfect parts, etc. ALL of which means you get a better product in the end and one which has cost the company LESS to make. And, the employees are largely responsible for ensuring that.

Managements main role is to keep them focused, keep removing roadblocks and keep the quality high!

We will see this kind of management soon in North America right? No, I don't think so either!

[UULC]

:cool2::cool2:UQ, LL, BBM, outstanding post. All three of you put it down precisely. Everyone has just amazed me. This forum just gets bettet with everyones input.


:yahoo::woot::clapping::jumpinsmile:

[LadyLeatherneck]

Well, that brings up another subject. I posted on another thread about equipping the locators with necessary items to do their jobs. I know of a locator today who had a broken computer, a camera that wasn't working, 4 cases of orange paint, (no more available), they took the camera and computer to repair and didn't give a replacement. Next locate was a high profile fiber and the crew was digging when he got there. No way to provide proof in case of a damage. UNSATISFACTORY!!!!! What kind of an operation are they running here? I've never heard of such UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR! Their response when contacted was, "Oh, you'll figure it out. Oh, we're working on it." NOT A GOOD WAY TO RUN A BUSINESS!!!!! WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO PROFESSIONALISM? THIS IS CRAZY!

[GWJ_CAS]

Wow! great post AGAIN L.L.!!!

I will offer one brief comment (ya, I know when were you ever brief U.G.) as I have said in another post the Japanese are kicking our sad sack butts all over town because they have turned the corporate culture and its thinking upside down. They believe in training and education and they build it in to every work process and measure its (the trainings) success at every step. They train then empower their people and then give them the properly working and calibrated tools required to do the job. The employees are involved in quality circles where they make decisions about how to solve problems that impact their day to day work.

All decisions are focused on how to make a better product for the customer and be more cost efficient. Because in quality, there is less waste, less downtime, fewer imperfect parts, etc. ALL of which means you get a better product in the end and one which has cost the company LESS to make. And, the employees are largely responsible for ensuring that.

Managements main role is to keep them focused, keep removing roadblocks and keep the quality high!



Interesting you chose Japan to discuss in a locating forum...Japan does not do locates like we do in the USA. Japan has a system called ROADIC (Road Administration Information Center) which is a new road information system (ROADIS) based on the latest computer mapping technology. Fixing a break in a line, whether pipe or wire, also entails finding it—and knowing what else might lie above it. Japan is the exception on the geospatial-information services (GIS) front, with a national mapping repository known as ROADIC. The underground mapping system consists of utility grids layered over a road map that utilities and builders consult before breaking ground. In the United States, moves toward centralized GIS plans for underground networks have been stymied by national-security concerns.

In Japan, the excavator makes a request to the ROADIC system for the map of the area involved in the excavation. The excavator then determines if he needs to locate the facilities before he digs. Most of the time, no locates are required because their GIS system is accurate within centimeters and the utilities are mapped to this exacting standard. Typically, the design engineer consulted the ROADIC system during design and prepared the plans with the underground info included, meaning the new facilities were designed around the existing utilities. At this level of accuracy, no locates normally required, if they are, the contractor employs his own staff to do them. No One Call, no contract locate companies...

[underground quester]

Interesting you chose Japan to discuss in a locating forum...Japan does not do locates like we do in the USA. Japan has a system called ROADIC (Road Administration Information Center) which is a new road information system (ROADIS) based on the latest computer mapping technology. Fixing a break in a line, whether pipe or wire, also entails finding it—and knowing what else might lie above it. Japan is the exception on the geospatial-information services (GIS) front, with a national mapping repository known as ROADIC. The underground mapping system consists of utility grids layered over a road map that utilities and builders consult before breaking ground. In the United States, moves toward centralized GIS plans for underground networks have been stymied by national-security concerns.

In Japan, the excavator makes a request to the ROADIC system for the map of the area involved in the excavation. The excavator then determines if he needs to locate the facilities before he digs. Most of the time, no locates are required because their GIS system is accurate within centimeters and the utilities are mapped to this exacting standard. Typically, the design engineer consulted the ROADIC system during design and prepared the plans with the underground info included, meaning the new facilities were designed around the existing utilities. At this level of accuracy, no locates normally required, if they are, the contractor employs his own staff to do them. No One Call, no contract locate companies...


Hey GWJ interesting stuff. I really did not know this.

My information regarding quality comes from my background in transportation/logistics involving Quality/process management.

There is another thread on the forum that talks about a U.S. based firm with technology that would be similar I believe.

This could certainly have interesting implications for our business in the future if they work out something re: National Security.

[Goldenboy]

For those who want more info on the ROADIC system here it is. It is very long but very interesting.
ROADIC (http://gita.org/ngi4cip/ROADIC_Final_Report.pdf)

[LadyLeatherneck]

Rumor has it that a locating company here in the US is developing a locating GPS system which when a locate is done it automatically is entered into a GPS tracking system which will keep track of where utilities are on any locate. This could also be trouble for this industry. Once all utilities have been located, what do we do then?

[GWJ_CAS]

Rumor has it that a locating company here in the US is developing a locating GPS system which when a locate is done it automatically is entered into a GPS tracking system which will keep track of where utilities are on any locate. This could also be trouble for this industry. Once all utilities have been located, what do we do then?

We do that. Our locators use Metrotech i5000's with GPS. The locate data is uploaded to the locator's laptop via bluetooth and attached to the ticket they were working. The upload data includes frequency, connection (direct/inductive), ground efficiency, current, locate direction (towards or away from box) and GPS data on the entire locate.

Once that data is uploaded, the GPS data is mined and mapped to a digital database. The client can then use this data to improve the quality of their map/GIS database for their infrastructure.

We have been working on this for a while. We worked with our ticket management software provider to develop the data interface to capture and catologue the GPS data to the actual ticket. It is pretty trick.

[UULC]

GWJ_CAS

Awesome! What type of ticket mgmt do you use? Is this done everywhere? Are all your clients using the info or this something your company offers?



:good: :good:

[yahoo]

yes sounds very interesting......waiting to hear the reply.....

[GWJ_CAS]

We use a customized version of Digtrack (www.digtrack.com (http://www.digtrack.com)). The folks at Digtrack and Metrotech worked closely to bring it together for us, and through our arrangement, we are the only ones who can use it for now. Currently, we are doing this in our Pasco County, FL area and one test locator in our Broward County, FL area.

The idea started out for one client in particular (sorry, cannot reveal) and may expand to other clients. Catch is, the client has to have facilities that are normally located via EM, so clients with a lot of untoneable PVC in the ground don't benefit. There are a couple of Telecom companies that are seriously considering this approach for system map improvement.

We are negotiating with other clients to either allow them to trial the system, or use it outright. When and if those clients agree to allow us to disclose who they are, I will be happy to share.

This fits well with our GPS chipped cameras. The camera records the date, time and GPS coordinate of the image taken. This data is also uploaded to our ticket management system and all is client viewable within 15 seconds of the locator uploading it and attaching it to the ticket, which they do before leaving the locate site.

We are working on a way to do this with our GPR systems. That involves adding a GPS system to the GPR unit and logging the data points for acquired during the GPR locate and then transmit that data to the ticket system.