Locator Certification

[GWJ_CAS]

Another old board topic.

The Florida Utilities Coordinating Committee (FUCC) has recently started a sub-committee on Locator Certification. This idea fits with a current push to certify Utility Coordinators. The FUCC offers a certification course here in Florida for Utility Coordination and our State DOT has agreed to recognize the Coordinator certification.

The committee is taking up the issue at the State level, but this could morph into a national issue. The committee has invited NULCA, the Utility Training Academy and Staking U to advise on creating such a state cert and provide info on the minimum criteria for certification. What is the opinion of the "Viners"?

[PowerSweep]

I welcome the idea. It will force everyone to standardize the level of training that they provide their employees before they throw them out in the field.

[UULC]

Another old board topic.

The Florida Utilities Coordinating Committee (FUCC) has recently started a sub-committee on Locator Certification. This idea fits with a current push to certify Utility Coordinators. The FUCC offers a certification course here in Florida for Utility Coordination and our State DOT has agreed to recognize the Coordinator certification.

The committee is taking up the issue at the State level, but this could morph into a national issue. The committee has invited NULCA, the Utility Training Academy and Staking U to advise on creating such a state cert and provide info on the minimum criteria for certification. What is the opinion of the "Viners"?

I agree with this. They have had voluntary certified Utility Coordinators for the last few years. her in the Tampa area. I have been "Voluntary-ed Certified for a while. I am also a Certified Utility locator. I think all certs should be handled through one department. Such as the Department of Professional Regulations or someone similar.

[Trent3342]

Another old board topic.

The Florida Utilities Coordinating Committee (FUCC) has recently started a sub-committee on Locator Certification. This idea fits with a current push to certify Utility Coordinators. The FUCC offers a certification course here in Florida for Utility Coordination and our State DOT has agreed to recognize the Coordinator certification.

The committee is taking up the issue at the State level, but this could morph into a national issue. The committee has invited NULCA, the Utility Training Academy and Staking U to advise on creating such a state cert and provide info on the minimum criteria for certification. What is the opinion of the "Viners"?



Sounds like a great idea Countrywide...look forward to meeting you at the Rodeo.

[Locatingart]

People I agree that we all should certified. After all we Protect the public from great harm. Police officer must be tested to firer there weapon. Nurses must be certified to do there jobs. Even the person who cuts your hair has to be certified. This all looks good on paper but as long there is Sub-contract locating Companys. It will never happen. Why give the any more reason to pay you what you are worth. I have a friend who finished two college coarse and became a Physical therpist asst, Starting pay out of school $25.00 per hour Full benifits and yes she is certified. I dont know any locator who gets that pay Starting or Experence locator. There dont want to pay for training or what you are worth. And look who runs NULCA the SUB-Contractors:hammer:

[USIC1]

I would be more than glad to present locators with certifications for a small fee of course...

Oh and remember the Great Oz gave the lion courage, the tin man a heart and the scare crow a diploma...

Well,

It will be something along those lines...


How boutcha as LOOPYwould say?.?.?.

Oh :shh:

[TBONE]

Sure why not then you can weed out the ones that cant really preform this job but get by while the vets cover thier asses and bail them out cause they CANT LOCATE CRAP!!!!!!!! sorry am I the only one who gets all the fiber infested tickets cause the other jerk that has been here just as long as me says I cant get it to run?????:scold:

[USIC1]

If you had a "Loopy" like me you could make that issue go away ...

hee hee hee

:cool2:

[TBONE]

If you had a "Loopy" like me you could make that issue go away ...

hee hee hee

:cool2:



Even if loopy gives it away it still comes right back:complain:

[underground quester]

Absolutely support an initiative like that 100%.

I have stated since I got into this business that this needs to be recognized as the profession that it truly is...not just a job that "anyone off the street could do" as many companies would have us believe.

I truly believe it will be outside forces that bring change here in Alberta. I do not believe there is the will within the First Call Corporation, the corporation utility shareholders nor the contract companies that serve them.

I do see want and need within the private locating field and there is some movement in that direction to certify "private" locators. I have taken the course and am working toward the requirements for final certification. Even though I am not a private locator I put my money and time where my mouth is. The company would not pay for the course, nor would they pay for my time away from work. No matter, I am doing it for me, not for my present employer.

It is about bloody time someone stepped forward to get this thing started.:clapping:


(Okay, I will step down off my soap box now!)

[TBONE]

Right on :ylsuper:

[Locatingart]

Good for those who have paid for themselves to be certified. But what you may not see is you are saying to the ones who are not williing to pay that the locators are willing. I have family to support and do the low pay for SM&P locators we cant afford to pay for are certification

[Locatingart]

Staking University Class Fees

Full Certification Week $1920
Part 1 $1000
Part 2 $1000
Custom on-site training
One-day to five-day classes available. $45.00/hour travel fee in addition to daily rate. $1600 per day plus travel expenses



Please send your check to ------------:crying:

[yahoo]

Sounds like a great idea Countrywide...look forward to meeting you at the Rodeo.

it is about time trent3342......................dude where have you been??? i am sorry i meant to call you and tell you you had to register again......how is the lsu tigers

[underground quester]

Good for those who have paid for themselves to be certified. But what you may not see is you are saying to the ones who are not williing to pay that the locators are willing. I have family to support and do the low pay for SM&P locators we cant afford to pay for are certification

Yes locatingart, you are right. I never gave that perspective any thought.

I know there are several people within the company I work for that want to take the course but when you add up the costs (course, meals, transportation, lost wages...it is expensive as heck).

And, I guess the issue is if certification becomes a requirement, who pays then? If I am an employee the employer might be forced to. If I am trying to get into the field, I guess it would be on me. Just the same as anyone going to school for most other forms of certification/degrees.

I am wondering, are there any government grants, student loans, or low interest financing available? Not familiar with how that works in the U.S.

Thanks for the insight into your perspective!

[Goldenboy]

I think locator certification is a great idea. The only problem with doing it nationwide would be the different locating scenerios in different areas. Up where I work I can use a 2 inch stubby screwdriver and get a great ground and then some of you need a 4 foot ground just to get any continuity. Not to mention half of locating is understanding the prints and structures which is different everywhere you locate. We all know if we can find the hookup point we can locate it.

I do think if there was a way to make a standardized format it could and would just be better for the industry as a whole. If all people were trained with the major concepts it would help with contracts and such.

[underground quester]

I think locator certification is a great idea. The only problem with doing it nationwide would be the different locating scenerios in different areas. Up where I work I can use a 2 inch stubby screwdriver and get a great ground and then some of you need a 4 foot ground just to get any continuity. Not to mention half of locating is understanding the prints and structures which is different everywhere you locate. We all know if we can find the hookup point we can locate it.

I do think if there was a way to make a standardized format it could and would just be better for the industry as a whole. If all people were trained with the major concepts it would help with contracts and such.



Yea, I agree Goldenboy. There needs to be standardization so that everyone has all of the basics. Every apprenticed trade deals with standard techniques then gets into differences in state/county rules and regulations. The regional differences can be added to any curriculum fairly easily.

I agree with you 100% about prints. This is covered in our training somewhat but then I guess all prints are different, so it does take a while in the field to get fully comfortable with them.

P.S. Wholly crap! a stubby screw driver for a ground rod? Where do you locate, kaua'i, Hawaii (rainiest spot in the world 500" rain per year on the wet side).
Here where I locate, my transmitter would just laugh at me if I tried that!

[UULC]

P.S. Wholly crap! a stubby screw driver for a ground rod? Where do you locate, PORTLAND, OREGON???
Here where I locate, my transmitter would just laugh at me if I tried that![/QUOTE]

I wish here in Florida we could use that. I have always carried water in a squirt bottle and Dawn dish soap.

[underground quester]

P.S. Wholly crap! a stubby screw driver for a ground rod? Where do you locate, PORTLAND, OREGON???
Here where I locate, my transmitter would just laugh at me if I tried that!

I wish here in Florida we could use that. I have always carried water in a squirt bottle and Dawn dish soap.[/QUOTE]


Yes, some of the guys here do that as well. In the winter we add a little methol alcohol so it does not freeze?

Not: I was editing the message and apparently you read it before I changed it to Kaua'i from Portland.

[Goldenboy]

FYI I was being a little sarcastic about the stubby screwdriver. I know I'd get continuity most the year with it but I use an 18 inch ground rod during the summer months and a flag pounder in the winter months.

[UULC]

Amazing, we could use a chat line on the forum. We just passed each other in typing.

[sprayandpray]

I guess I will have to be the fly in the ointment on this certification idea. For starters, if this is to be administered by a government entity which one, or would it be an entirely new department? More bureaucracy, more expense, more pressure because once you certify someone you must surely re-certify them every few years and charge them again so the bureaucracy can keep expanding and hiring more kinfolk and friends so they can affor lobbyists to expand their scope and keep growing and re-certifying and expanding and maybe institute a 1/2 % sales tax on the public in general, etc. etc. etc.

Anyways, why should we be certified if equipment operators aren't required to be certified?

[UULC]

Very good argument. I would still venture to say we need to be certified.

[underground quester]

FYI I was being a little sarcastic about the stubby screwdriver. I know I'd get continuity most the year with it but I use an 18 inch ground rod during the summer months and a flag pounder in the winter months.


LOL, yes I caught the humor. I immediately thought now what would be the wettest place in the U.S. Originally thought of Oregon but changed that to hawaii. It all good!

[Loc8r]

Absolutely support an initiative like that 100%.

I have stated since I got into this business that this needs to be recognized as the profession that it truly is...not just a job that "anyone off the street could do" as many companies would have us believe.

I truly believe it will be outside forces that bring change here in Alberta. I do not believe there is the will within the First Call Corporation, the corporation utility shareholders nor the contract companies that serve them.

I do see want and need within the private locating field and there is some movement in that direction to certify "private" locators. I have taken the course and am working toward the requirements for final certification. Even though I am not a private locator I put my money and time where my mouth is. The company would not pay for the course, nor would they pay for my time away from work. No matter, I am doing it for me, not for my present employer.

It is about bloody time someone stepped forward to get this thing started.:clapping:


(Okay, I will step down off my soap box now!)

Hey Underground Quester,

I am very curious as to what you are talking about for certifying "private" locators. I happen to be one of those types here in Alberta and there are no certification courses that I know of specifically for private locators. I would also be very interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the industry as a whole since your view seems to be similar to mine.

I know many in the public locating realm here in Calgary have a very low opinion of private locators but they are the reason I am around. They hate it when I stand there waiting for them to finish so I can double check the work. There are a number of so called locators here who can't locate their ass with both hands and they tarnish our profession. I would dearly love to see those ones out of the industry so the good locators can stand up and be recognized for the value add jobs they do.

[UULC]

Loc8r,

Well said!

[Mr Blunderbuss]

I am certified to locate gas facilities. I believe there already is some sort of federal requirement but can't remember under which department.

[underground quester]

Hey Underground Quester,

I am very curious as to what you are talking about for certifying "private" locators. I happen to be one of those types here in Alberta and there are no certification courses that I know of specifically for private locators. I would also be very interested in hearing more about your thoughts on the industry as a whole since your view seems to be similar to mine.

I know many in the public locating realm here in Calgary have a very low opinion of private locators but they are the reason I am around. They hate it when I stand there waiting for them to finish so I can double check the work. There are a number of so called locators here who can't locate their ass with both hands and they tarnish our profession. I would dearly love to see those ones out of the industry so the good locators can stand up and be recognized for the value add jobs they do.


Love your avatar.

I am of course speaking of the certification program offered at ENFORM (PITS)

The course now has requirement that you take number of courses, the 7 work day long locators course, ROW ground disturbance course, reading and interpreting Maps, bear awareness (but no rattler awareness course) Defensive driving, ATV/Snowmobile course,
H2S, First aid, WHMIS/TDG. You also have numerous requirements (5 pages in the log book) you must meet in maintaining and updating a geophysical locators log book that include records of locates you worked & these must be signed off by your manager minimum 200 hours mostly within a rural setting, safety orientation within the company, PPE, Reporting procedures, Emerg response procedures, etc. The requirements must be met within 2 years AND you must requalify every 6 years. BUT, the positive here Kerry is that you as a locator have documented proof of what you can ACTUALLY do because you can show them what requirements you have consistently met.

This is an initiative started by Ken Kuzyk from Capaulc but is supported by many of the oil and gas associations in Alberta. Numerous gas coops, Bob Chisholm (Alta 1 call) Alberta Energy, numerous survey companies, etc. sit on the locators training curriculum development committee. At this point it is obviously voluntary, but many on the committee are attempting to move the requirements forward.

I was recently interviewed and hired by a PRIVATE LOCATING firm in the Peace Country & this certification was a HIRING REQUIRMENT. No course, no job. I was attracted by the money (2 X what I am making plus LA of $165.00 per day) but in the end I decided I did not want to spend weeks at a time away. Did that for 25 years with CN Rail.

I have no particular bent either way regarding Private locating. It is one hell of a lot more difficult than the job I do. I respect the PATIENCE and creative thinking that must go in to doing the job.
Having said that, because Edmonton (and Calgary for that matter) are growing like bad weeds, I have a huge territory in the S.W. quadrant of Edmonton. Full of old infrastructure, and a host of new infrastructure. Many of the records are lost/outdated so am in essence locating much like a private locator, many times during the day.

My educational background is Process Management/ISO 9000 Quality Management so I tend toward the anal retentive when it comes to doing this or any other job.

Because of the serious nature of the work we all do (most especially private locators) I want more training and education but get looked at like I have two heads when I ask. So, I took the responsibility upon myself to upgrade my skill/knowledge sets.

I agree there are some in this industry who have difficulty locating (put polietly) but I sometimes wonder...who really is at fault.
Was the individual properly interviewed, asked appropriate questions, background checked for references, attitudes checked out with former employers, adequate timely training, adequate followup and mentoring, appropriate work level for the competency (an Alberta Workers Comp requirement but rarely met), COMPETENCY records maintained so the company can defend themselves in event of a mishap (none I know of) and requalifing training.

I think we both know the answer here Kerry.
There never seems to be time to do this much checking. So then, I ask myself, who really is at fault if they cannot locate.
I am not speaking of your company here Kerry as I know nothing of it, but in general some firms do not have the time, resources, nor I believe the will to do things properly in order to get the results they desire.
When some companies do not get what they want, the individual is blamed and let go and the whole process starts all over again. One hell of a COST CENTRE isn't it? And many managers just do not see what the hell is going wrong or why!

For these reasons, I believe FORMAL training must be taken out of the hands of most companies and the individuals trained to recognized standards. Their skills are then further developed while working on the job. Much the same as any apprentice going to NAIT/SAIT has to take standard course work/testing to meet known standards.

Okay, I will get off my soap box now. (Sorry if I come across ranting, but I am pretty passionate about this issue)!!

[underground quester]

[QUOTE=sprayandpray;1047]I guess I will have to be the fly in the ointment on this certification idea. For starters, if this is to be administered by a government entity which one, or would it be an entirely new department? More bureaucracy, more expense, more pressure because once you certify someone you must surely re-certify them every few years and charge them again so the bureaucracy can keep expanding and hiring more kinfolk and friends so they can affor lobbyists to expand their scope and keep growing and re-certifying and expanding and maybe institute a 1/2 % sales tax on the public in general, etc. etc. etc.

Anyways, why should we be certified if equipment operators aren't required to be certified?


Hey Spray:

Good counter point.

I do not know exactly but here in Canada, Apprentices are tracked by some government body until they become a journeyman. Most trades do NOT have a recertification process.

At present, I would think the department already exists. Ask anyone you know who is a journeyman trades person and they should be able to tell you what department takes care of this. Probably some department that deals with labor issues (no, not the local maternity hospital!!).

In Alberta at present, the change is being spearheaded by the Oil and Gas industry in conjunction with a company called ENFORM ( Same kind of thing as the Staking University but deals with all forms of oil and gas training including locator training). I do not believe it is on the radar of the government at this point but could be wrong.

In Alberta, almost anyone can jump onto a piece of heavy equipment and after 10 minutes of training call themselves an operator. There is a training institute in Alberta that offers a heavy equipment operators ticket. It is not a requirement though.

[yahoo]

what is the chance that this would ever take place?????

[Locatingart]

People you are living in a world that is not real. Ask yourself this. Who is going to pay for this training? I was talking to one of are Newbie At SM&P and he open told me. he is getting paid $10.00 a hour Why would he pay for training that he cant afoord and a company who is willing to pay him that Bull**** wage is not going to pay for it. Oh I know maybe United Way will step in and help are fellow locator who barely put food on the table. Stop worry about training and start fighting for the poor saps that are getting treat like sh**:hammer:

[Locatingart]

Sorry for the mistakes in spelling I am a little pissed off at SM&P

[underground quester]

what is the chance that this would ever take place?????

Good question Yahoo. Man, most times I like to think I am a "glass half full kind of guy" so am thinking it may come but probably not very fast. If the initiative in Florida takes root, that in itself will take time to have everyone agree on what is needed.

With all stakeholders holding somewhat opposing views, could be like mating elephants...lots of grunting, groaning, earth shaking, but not much action.
My guess, if it happens, the process would take two years to get everything in place and up and running. There is just TOO much to do.

[underground quester]

People you are living in a world that is not real. Ask yourself this. Who is going to pay for this training? I was talking to one of are Newbie At SM&P and he open told me. he is getting paid $10.00 a hour Why would he pay for training that he cant afoord and a company who is willing to pay him that Bull**** wage is not going to pay for it. Oh I know maybe United Way will step in and help are fellow locator who barely put food on the table. Stop worry about training and start fighting for the poor saps that are getting treat like sh**:hammer:



Hey there Locatingart:

This whole area of training is a somewhat sensitive area. I started at the bottom, worked my way to senior mgmt. Left, went back to school, started and ran my own business, sold my business and took on locating "until I could find a real job". But guess what, I ended up liking it and have stayed for over 3 years now. But, I digress.

I mention the above, because I have the capability now to see things from both perspectives.

In reality, training is NOT the responsibility of the company, it only trains you to bare minimum out of necessity, not because IT MUST BY LAW. (yes, I know, there are exceptions).

Training is and will always remain the responsibility of the individual. How one affords to do it is irrelevant to the company. They owe their allegence to the shareholders and the people who have invested money into this venture. By training you, they are incurring cost that MAY or MAY NOT see a return on investment.

Think of it this way. Say you take $100.00 hard earned bucks and buy 10 shares in AT&T. You are hoping for a return on investment (dividend) and an increase in share price but that may or may not happen. So, lets say the share price consistently falls. How much are you going to keep investing? Companies think the same way. Train them today, gone tomorrow for better bucks to someone else. Lost time, money and productivity. Why keep doing something that is not working? And that is why in other threads you will see me say training must be taken out of the hands of each company and into a central body where everyone is trained to set and known standards.

Now, I am aware of your belief in unions and the belief that the company should hold full responsibility for the individual. For safety and safe work practices the individual must be trained. Basic how too's of locating are also their responsibility. But, the individual has numerous responsibilities, to show up with the necessary notepads, binder, etc. ready to learn, with a positive attitude, be organized, ask questions and take stuff home at night to study and prepare for tests. In over 40 years of working and a great many of those years in instructional process, I can tell you from experience few are. The exception, people who have taken responsibility for their own learning.

Now, please do not jump on me for taking the company management line as I am simply a locator like yourself. I have been offered several promotions and have turned EACH one down.

Let me give you another example. Where I work, we have tailgate meetings once a month. I have every months copy of the notes for over three years. I keep them in my learning journal. And, I learn a great deal from them.

I also take copious notes, keep them organized and indexed in a binder and on a computer for every utility I locate (7 utilities) Any new tip, idea, thing I try that works goes in there. Come time each year for a raise, I go in to my manager and I show him what I have learned in the year.

Guess what? I am amongst the highest paid locators in my company. Because I take responsibility for my own learning.

Three years ago, I too started at $10.00 no benefits, nothing. Today, three years later I am almost double that. Some would be pi**ed to learn I got $2.00 hr increase when they got .50 cents hr. They may believe I am the bosses pet, I can assure you, I am FAR from that.

Because I make him take responsibility for management issues that are his responsibility and sometimes I am sure he gets a little heated.

Taking responsibility for your own learning is not just about taking courses. It is also about keeping organized notes and thoughts on paper, asking questions and writing down the answers so I do not have to ask the same question over and over again. And, I review my journal from time to time to refresh my learning.

I can tell you that NO ONE of the 200 plus employees I work with does this. And many come to me for answers. I help them, but I also believe they are lazy bas***ds for not taking their own learning seriously.

This is a new occupation to the nube you spoke of. Have him set up an organized journal, with dividers for each utility and take all the note they can. Have them ask tons of questions. To be taken as a person of interest one must be interested!

I have tried this with many many nubes, guess what, its too much work. Well tough shit, who said life was easy?

Anyway, sorry if I pi**ed in your cereal, but people MUST take responsibility for themselves first and foremost and not whine to the company that the Co. has to do this or that for me. That's not their job. It's each of our responsibilities. Many of us who are long term locators are here because we have taken the time to learn, are here to do a good job and really get an intrinsic reward from doing a good job.

In my younger years, I took part time jobs or worked overtime to get the money to pay for course work. In Canada one can also apply for student loans, grants or burseries. This past winter, I took time off work and took some of the money I set aside and took the course because of my belief there has to be better training out there somewhere.

But how about asking some senior members to get a group together over a pizza and talk about one particular aspect of a utility.This is what my mentor (also my former immediate supervisor) used to do. Every Tuesday at the golden arches, 10 of us would get together and he would discuss problem areas he saw, or, discuss with nubes how to hook up or use cheater clips in new ways. That was not however a company sanctioned initiative. It flowed from him directly because he cared. Best damned boss I have ever had!

[UULC]

Underground Quester, I like your thinking. You say it so right. Take ownership of your own job and work. I was a sup and a locator who took ownership would get more then the one who was just there for a check. But I see you and I are on the same page.

[Locatingart]

underground quester: First I agree with what you are saying. If someone come to me and says there dont tneed anymore training in what there do in live I say to them. Look again!! We could never know enough. But we also must have balance. Thiese Guys and Gals working these long hot summer days locating mile long locates are being walk on by these creedy sub-contractor who dont care about anyone but the upper crust. Good training will never see the light of Day. We will always have this Walmart of training. Get them out the door and over feed them with tickets and firer them for the damages and hirer some more.

[underground quester]

underground quester: First I agree with what you are saying. If someone come to me and says there dont tneed anymore training in what there do in live I say to them. Look again!! We could never know enough. But we also must have balance. Thiese Guys and Gals working these long hot summer days locating mile long locates are being walk on by these creedy sub-contractor who dont care about anyone but the upper crust. Good training will never see the light of Day. We will always have this Walmart of training. Get them out the door and over feed them with tickets and firer them for the damages and hirer some more.

You are right, good training may not see light of day with many firms and that is why I am saying take it out of their hands. Have a recognized central body that trains to known standards and with qualifications will come better pay. Simply because, companies who pay the best will get the best and the rest will struggle. More pressure on the firms (ie:SM&P/CLS etc.) from 1 call and perhaps contractors will result in better wages because the contractors will be able to see the difference and know what is driving that difference. As in anything in life, that action (better training) will drive a necessary change in the overall life quality of all locators as a whole. But, the individuals must have the qualifications to drive the change.

Maintaining the paradigm will change nothing. There has to be a paradigm shift somewhere. Training is as good a place as any to start a change.

Will this change happen in the short term. NOT a hope in hell.
This is a long term venture. So, get your spurs on and saddle up, its a long ride.

Wow, just a thought, who the heck died and made me king. I will shut up on this issue now! I may or may not be right but these are just my views.

[Locatingart]

So should we get are State Goverments involved?

[underground quester]

So should we get are State Goverments involved?

I think it would be better to get all stakeholders (anyone who has an interest in how, when, why, where, locates are done). Along with trade associations and perhaps some government body as an observer.

That way, you have input from all sides and can see issues brought forward by someone that you may not have thought about.

Of course, the more people involved... unfortunately (sometimes) you start out designing a horse and end up with a jackass (oops, did I really say that in my out loud voice).

[AULupstate]

Here is an industry that for the most part in many states is heavily regulated and for the most part you must be certified to work. SECURITY!

40 hour course to get your license, 16 hour yearly in service (company paid)

48 hour course for armed, in service requalification (individual paid)

The first one doesn't pay worth a tinkers damn, the second one pays (usually) better.

My point is if you want to make money and make better money do what YOU can to better yourself. No one will do it for you.

[RoadMap]

Simply because, companies who pay the best will get the best and the rest will struggle. More pressure on the firms (ie:SM&P/CLS etc.) from 1 call and perhaps contractors will result in better wages because the contractors will be able to see the difference and know what is driving that difference. As in anything in life, that action (better training) will drive a necessary change in the overall life quality of all locators as a whole. But, the individuals must have the qualifications to drive the change.

Except your logic is a little skewed. The utilities and the contractors do not care who does their locates. They just want them done on time. If they are wrong then they get paid 100% of the bill. If they are right and the contractor is at fault they might get 50% of the full bill. ATT is hurting like everyone else and when the gas prices start to hurt them they will cut back. And the first things to get cut are the VENDORS, which is us the locators. To beat down our locate price even more. Certification means nothing to Utilities except for their Union workers.

[underground quester]

Except your logic is a little skewed. The utilities and the contractors do not care who does their locates. They just want them done on time. If they are wrong then they get paid 100% of the bill. If they are right and the contractor is at fault they might get 50% of the full bill. ATT is hurting like everyone else and when the gas prices start to hurt them they will cut back. And the first things to get cut are the VENDORS, which is us the locators. To beat down our locate price even more. Certification means nothing to Utilities except for their Union workers.[/QUOTE]


Hey there Roadmap:

The util & Contractors do not care who does their locates.

That the utilities do not care I believe is a misconception. They care a great deal because there are a great many associated costs that are not covered in a hit. How for example do you fix a price on a P.O.'s customer that has hd it with ATT down phone/internet and makes a change? A lot of the paperwork, ATT peoples time etc may not be put in the bill.
Companies care but with the contractual obligations the locating firm must pay for errors (and at times take b.s. hits) because the locating firm did not meet contractual obligations. Think about taking your car to a mechanic to have motor work done. It comes back and the front quarter panel is damaged. You rightfully would expect the garage to pay for the repairs. Same logic applys to the util. co.

Contractors for the most part I believe care as well, they lose production time and may still have wage obligations, etc. that may or may not be paid back to them. Additionally, some I deal with have many many balls in the air and along comes a hit due to mismarking. His view, "christ can't anyone do anything right?" Then the first locator that comes along gets a pile of S**T dumped on him.
Generally, people who show some frustration i am okay with...because it usually means they care. Also, if one of their workers gets hurt there are tons of financial & paper obligations. More crap. More frustration.

"And first thing to be cut are the vendors"

I have worked on or been part of changing/cutting many budgets in my time including running my own business for 8 years. In this case I cannot speak to how ATT operates because I do not know. However, many things are often cut internally before vendors see cuts. Usually, training, travel, graft (hats, pens, that kind of giveaway). Sometimes the "pain" is spread many directions and the vendor may or may not be cut. No company is silly enough to believe they can keep cutting forever and get contractors who can realistically do the job and still make a profit. Locating companies cost HUGE bucks to set up vehicles, equipment, staffing, supplies (paint, batteries, etc). No one is seriously going to invest any amount of money if they cannot see a return on investment. That return may be realized or it may not. If not, they close the doors, but someone has lost TONS of money.

I still believe adequate training will go a long ways toward resolving many issues and when things get better everyone who needs to will sit up and take notice. I do not say that certification of locators is a panacea that will cure all evils. It will not and I hope I have not said that anywhere. But, it MAY bring better people, better results, better wages (eventually) because noone is going to get certified and work for $10.00.

Things generally change is small increments, not in huge sweeping waves. People often cannot adjust well to sweeping change.